Je Suis Charlie

[JeSuisCharlie]

You have the right to be offended. I have the right to believe in what I want. We should learn from the pupils that we can be aware of differing opinions without the cancel culture
Join me if you agree with three small words...

@XelaM

I'm not Muslim, but any teacher who shows students caricatures of Muhammad is being deliberately provocative and offensive and should lose their job. It is not a "debate". Everyone knows this would cause offence. And I always thought Charlie Hebo was a disgusting magazine after they made a "funny" caricature of the Russian airplane explosion that happened (the airplane full of holiday makers in Egypt) - totally hilarious to depict children coming back from a holiday being blown to pieces.

Agreed.

Jesus I'm struggling to understand the link between a real life child and some created imaginary fantasy.

It's like kicking off because someone insulted the image of medusa?

I'm a very lapsed Catholic.. I couldn't get upset about other people's ideas of christ.. Films.. Pictures... That's their problem not mine.

Please try to imagine how you would feel if someone shared an offensive image about something YOU care about.

I would handle it.

Nope. I love satire. That wasn't satire. That wasn't 'offending'. It was taking a sincerely held belief and trampling all over it.

@BruisedPear

How is it racist to criticise a religion which has followers worldwide of all nationalities and ethnicities?

You mention Sarah Everard. I see two further comparisons to make with what followed her tragic death. One, the police telling women to not go out alone at night drew criticism and smacked of victim blaming. Yet it's apparently ok to for those defending the Batlet protestors to say that the teacher should have known what would happen given the reaction to similar cases before e.g. the teacher in Paris. More victim blaming instead of asking those protesting in what way their behaviours, and death threats to the teacher are a reasonable and proportionate response? They're definitely illegal, not that the police seem bothered but are they moral and reasonable too?
Two, look how the police dealt with women attending the vigil for Sarah Everard and compare and contrast with the police's kid gloves approach to the rent a mob, male, religious extremists in Batley. So, misogyny, absolutely! That's one thing we can agree on.

Religious extremists and neo-Nazis have more in common than they might wish to admit.

Oh, and fascists and racists can be non-white too. It shouldn't need saying but....

@SprungisSpringYaY

Jesus I'm struggling to understand the link between a real life child and some created imaginary fantasy.

It's like kicking off because someone insulted the image of medusa?

I'm a very lapsed Catholic.. I couldn't get upset about other people's ideas of christ.. Films.. Pictures... That's their problem not mine.

As a non-Muslim, it's not something I can relate to personally either (the Mohammed cartoons I mean). But I recognise that it is deeply offensive to Muslims, and I understand that I don't have the right to tell them what they can and can't be upset by.

Would you really not be upset by someone publishing cartoons mocking your dead child? I'm not having a go here, I'm genuinely wondering.

I agree op.

Religious extremists and neo-Nazis have more in common than they might wish to admit.

Yep.

@LaceyBetty my family are devout Christians. They dislike The Life of Brian etc and definitely find it offensive. They also believe that homosexuality is a sin and in creationism. But my parents never removed me or my siblings from any lessons at school nor did they hold protests or make threats to kill the science and PHSE teachers. They just told us what they believe as well, took us to church as kids and let us make our own minds up. I haven't followed their beliefs and am still as much a part of the family as my siblings who do believe.

Je Suis Charlie

Oh right. A magazine that is often intentionally provocative is the same as a teacher thinking they have the right to be provocative when teaching young impressionable pupils

Ffs no doubt we shall hear the Je Suis Charlie from the likes of Farage and Trump supporters soon if they haven’t already jumped on this bandwagon

@Chaiandkaafee

Using the homophobia comparison, there is a definition for prejudice against Muslims. It’s Islamophobia, if the prejudice is against the religion rather than the race.

Obviously, those who exhibit Islamophobia might also be racist in their outlook.

@LaceyBetty

There is no such thing as "free speech" - the right to say and do whatever you want has always been curtailed by the law. That is why, for example, we have hate crime laws. There is no right to be offensive.

@Moondust001

This is so wrong. Freedom of speech is only curtailed by hate speech laws where it expresses hate or invites violence against a protected group. Everyone has the right to offend. And so we should.

Really? Why don't you try it on here then. Post a transphobic/racist/homophobic etc comment and see how long it lasts. Keep it up and see how long your account lasts, and this is just an online forum. This freedom of speech bleating is bullshit, and we all know it. That's why very few people say what they think in real life. Hell, people namechange just to post an "unpopular" opinion.

Why? Because while you might be able to say or write whatever the fuck you want, that doesn't mean there aren't consequences for it.

Ugh. Freedom of speech means the state can't sanction you (can't jail you or punish you). I never said their wouldn't be repercussions. The poster I quoted said freedom of speech doesn't exist and we don't have the right to offend. We do.

Let's say the teacher showed them a poster claiming pedophilia is just "love".
Or that the Holocaust didn't exist.
Or a caricature depicting black people as monkeys.
Or the British Empire as pilferers and murderers.
Or Mary getting it on behind Joseph's back with a witty comment.
Or a get back to the kitchen poster.
Or giving Hindu students beef without their knowledge.
Or burning a poppy and the union jack.

Would that still be ok? No protests? No complaints? Just freedom of speech and just using "resources" to promote debate and learning?

[quote WireFan]@BruisedPear

How is it racist to criticise a religion which has followers worldwide of all nationalities and ethnicities?

You mention Sarah Everard. I see two further comparisons to make with what followed her tragic death. One, the police telling women to not go out alone at night drew criticism and smacked of victim blaming. Yet it's apparently ok to for those defending the Batlet protestors to say that the teacher should have known what would happen given the reaction to similar cases before e.g. the teacher in Paris. More victim blaming instead of asking those protesting in what way their behaviours, and death threats to the teacher are a reasonable and proportionate response? They're definitely illegal, not that the police seem bothered but are they moral and reasonable too?
Two, look how the police dealt with women attending the vigil for Sarah Everard and compare and contrast with the police's kid gloves approach to the rent a mob, male, religious extremists in Batley. So, misogyny, absolutely! That's one thing we can agree on.

Religious extremists and neo-Nazis have more in common than they might wish to admit.

Oh, and fascists and racists can be non-white too. It shouldn't need saying but....[/quote]
Drawing a black woman as a monkey will always be racist. Point blank period.

I never said the police were right or the way they handled it was right. Also I never said the death threats against the teacher were okay. Please let me know when I said that ?

You’re doing classic what iffery lol. Je Suis Charlie can be offensive, islamophobic and racist, the police response to the protests in clapham can be wrong AND the people making death threats against the teacher can also be wrong all at the same time. They’re not mutually exclusive. I can’t believe this even needs explaining or you thought you was making a valid point.

I personally am not saying people can't complain and protest about things they don't like. But that doesn't mean freedom of speech doesn't exist. Just like the protesters have the right to protest and an employer can fire you etc. What you don't have the right to do is violently attack and kill people who offend you - as in the Hebdo matter.

There is no such thing as "free speech" - the right to say and do whatever you want has always been curtailed by the law. That is why, for example, we have hate crime laws. There is no right to be offensive

Which law would that be, Sharia law? It's on the street, representated by a mob of fanatically religious local men, who "speak for the community". They've shut down a state school and a whole street. They've been backed by a spineless head teacher and craven local MP. A teacher has recieved death threats and is in hiding, probably his family are too

So there is even less free speech in West Yorkshire now than there was last week. Happy?

What you don't have the right to do is violently attack and kill people who offend you - as in the Hebdo matter.

Completely agree with that point.

@dontsaveusername a picture also shouldn't lead to death threats and mob protests by followers of a religion either.
Imagine being so secure and confident in your religious convictions that this kind of stuff was water off a duck's back.... Instead we have Islamic fragility. And I am well aware that the protestors don't represent all Muslims and all sections of Islam so it would be great to hear condemnation of their actions by Muslims who do not wish to be categorised with them.

@Flaxmeadow

There is no such thing as "free speech" - the right to say and do whatever you want has always been curtailed by the law. That is why, for example, we have hate crime laws. There is no right to be offensive

Which law would that be, Sharia law? It's on the street, representated by a mob of fanatically religious local men, who "speak for the community". They've shut down a state school and a whole street. They've been backed by a spineless head teacher and craven local MP. A teacher has recieved death threats and is in hiding, probably his family are too

So there is even less free speech in West Yorkshire now than there was last week. Happy?

😂😂😂😂. Are you for real?

The same police force that makes visits and arrests people over Twitter rows and "dead naming" people?
That West Yorkshire? Freedom of speech hasn't been there for a long time. Or does it only matter when offending Muslims?

In response to the OP, I am not Charlie Hebdo. It is offensive and not even very funny so I tend to ignore their offensive material, which targets many religions, with the Catholic church coming in for as much vitriol and mockery as any. But the Charlie Hebdo staff and readers should in no way be threatened with violence or death for causing offence.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences. Show an offensive image to a group of children, someone will get offended.

😂😂😂😂. Are you for real?

The same police force that makes visits and arrests people over Twitter rows and "dead naming" people?
That West Yorkshire? Freedom of speech hasn't been there for a long time. Or does it only matter when offending Muslims

Do you understand what "even less free speech..." means?

[quote WireFan]@dontsaveusername a picture also shouldn't lead to death threats and mob protests by followers of a religion either.
Imagine being so secure and confident in your religious convictions that this kind of stuff was water off a duck's back.... Instead we have Islamic fragility. And I am well aware that the protestors don't represent all Muslims and all sections of Islam so it would be great to hear condemnation of their actions by Muslims who do not wish to be categorised with them.[/quote]
Indeed it shouldn't. I don't condone ,accept or excuse that type of behaviour no matter what.

But you're comparing apples and pears here . It's not about fragility or not being secure in your faith.

I'm sure many Christians would be offended by a lewd depiction of Jesus for example. However there is a massive difference between Islam and Christianity. For a lot of muslims no depictions of Mohammed (or other prophets)are allowed, no matter how nice or respectful or reverent. None at all. That's what they know,what they believe,what they live,what they grow up with. So even a nice image would be offensive. That's something that's well known, or should at least be to someone who is teaching religious studies. Now to take that one step further, and depict him as he was in the CH caricature is inflammatory and not a mistake or naivety.

Do I understand why Muslim parents and children were offended? Yes. Do I think the ones protesting and making death threats are in the wrong and should be dealt with? Yes. Do I also think the teacher was wrong and he should be also dealt with by the school? Yes.

They are not mutually exclusive.

And I am well aware that the protestors don't represent all Muslims and all sections of Islam so it would be great to hear condemnation of their actions by Muslims who do not wish to be categorised with them.

I am one of those ‘water off a duck’s back’ Muslims, but equally I don’t feel the need to speak out to make you feel better.