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AIBU?

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Original poster

Je Suis Charlie

248 replies

JeSuisCharlie · 27/03/2021 08:47

You have the right to be offended. I have the right to believe in what I want. We should learn from the pupils that we can be aware of differing opinions without the cancel culture
Join me if you agree with three small words...

OP posts:
Flaxmeadow · 27/03/2021 21:10

He has decided for others what is and what isn’t offensive

No he hasn't
He asked the teenagers during a discussion if they thought they might be offended that they could leave the class for thr time being.

It was only one child who complained to their parent. For this a whole school has been shut down and a teacher is in hiding from death threats

OhWhyNot · 27/03/2021 21:12

And when I posted some people have had enough of being mocked that wasn’t in support of violence

But to standing up and saying enough now

OhWhyNot · 27/03/2021 21:17

Yes he has because unless he has lived under a rock he is well aware that many Muslims find the drawing offensive

So why decide for those Muslim pupils he is teaching that it’s his place to show them a picture that is possibly offensive

Why not just discuss the drawing

OhWhyNot · 27/03/2021 21:18

And when do children want to be singled out

I am not defending any threats

I can understand why pupils parents have complained

WireFan · 27/03/2021 21:18

@AccidentallyOnPurpose gee, helpful. 🙄 I'm not sure that clarification was needed though given that, for now, the thought police haven't yet been established as an arm of the State here. But the way things are going it might not be too much longer....

BenoneBeauty · 27/03/2021 21:19

@MsScoot it is OK to insult someone's religion, or at least it should be. It's not something I would do as I'm a Christian and wouldn't do it out of respect, however I do believe others have the right to if they choose as I totally believe that people have the right to believe or not - no religion or religious beliefs should be forced upon anyone.

This only leads to violence because there are violent people & nothing to do with religion at all - they use religion to excuse their violent nature and acts.

SharonasCorona · 27/03/2021 21:19

ireFan

@SharonasCorona

You're under no obligation to speak out. No one is. But if extreme Christians were behaving like this I would publicly distance myself from them.

You shouldn’t need me speak out for you to realise most Muslims don’t behave this way. Do you not have Muslim friends/colleagues/neighbours?

LexMitior · 27/03/2021 21:26

@Flaxmeadow

He has decided for others what is and what isn’t offensive

No he hasn't
He asked the teenagers during a discussion if they thought they might be offended that they could leave the class for thr time being.

It was only one child who complained to their parent. For this a whole school has been shut down and a teacher is in hiding from death threats

Then the teacher acted considerately and properly.

The child is still a child, because they do not understand apparently that education does not have conform to his or her beliefs.

A braver headteacher would have backed the teacher and had a discussion with the parents. But clearly frightened to do so, which was wise, since a mob of men came to the school anyway.

This really isn't about freedom of expression. It is about religion, or people who claim to be religious, claiming a right not to be offended. And this right does not exist for any of the rest of us, and it should not be extended to religious persons.

WireFan · 27/03/2021 21:26

@OhWhyNot are you saying that discussion of the drawing, the details of what it depicts, but not actually showing it would have been a safer alternative? You're sure that would not have led to complaints? I'm not sure.

There's no consistency in the explanations I've seen as to why the image shown was offensive. Is it a) because it was an image of Muhammad b) because it was an image of Muhammad that presented him in a certain way c) that it was shown to a class containing a lt least a single Muslim student or d) that it was shown to a class containing a majority of Muslim students. Which one or which combination of? My understanding is that not all Islamic creeds forbid the depiction of the Prophet in any way at all. Does that make a difference?

MsScoot · 27/03/2021 21:27

@BenoneBeauty I believe in free speech. And I’m using my free speech to say that I dislike Charlie Hebdo and the way they insult the Muslim religion. I don’t think they should be banned. But I think the teacher made the wrong choice in showing the cartoon to his class

OhWhyNot · 27/03/2021 21:31

Yes

But then why focus on Islam (once again when talking about freedom of speech) there are many other examples that can be given throughout history

But no let’s once again turn our attention to Muslims because apparently it’s a delicate subject for them

SnackSizeRaisin · 27/03/2021 21:31

I don't disagree with the existence of the Charlie hebdo magazine and I certainly don't think the teacher should be subject to threats.
However I also don't think showing this type of material in a school attended by Muslims is remotely appropriate. At the very least it's going to cause offence, discomfort, encourage bullying.
Free speech is indeed a right but it does not need to be exercised in schools during lessons. A little bit of sensitivity to pupils individual circumstances would have avoided this situation.
If people wish to go out and read this kind of thing that's up to them but I don't see why state school pupils should be subjected to it.

BenoneBeauty · 27/03/2021 21:35

[quote MsScoot]@BenoneBeauty I believe in free speech. And I’m using my free speech to say that I dislike Charlie Hebdo and the way they insult the Muslim religion. I don’t think they should be banned. But I think the teacher made the wrong choice in showing the cartoon to his class[/quote]
And I fully support your right to believe / speak out in that way.

SnackSizeRaisin · 27/03/2021 21:40

He asked the teenagers during a discussion if they thought they might be offended that they could leave the class for thr time being.

That is pretty unfair if true. Why should a pupil be expected to make some kind of public stand in order to not have their religion mocked in school? If the teacher thought it may be offensive it's up to them not to show the material.
How about "let's all discuss whether this picture of a black man depicted as a chimp is offensive, if you think you may be offended please leave the room" when there is one black pupil in the class.

dontsaveusername · 27/03/2021 21:43

[quote WireFan]@dontsaveusername do you support censorship?[/quote]
Do you support holocaust deniers? Do you think it's ok to promote female genital mutilation, do you think paedophilic photos should be widely available, do you support violent misogynist pornography? Fucking stupid comment.

WireFan · 27/03/2021 21:43

@SharonasCorona yes I do have Muslim friends and acquaintances. Not many admittedly and all on the more integrated and liberal end of the spectrum. None have commented to me or on social on the Batley issue so far.

It is interesting ti see the reaction of the handful of very left wing, woke and liberal, usually very anti-religion friends I have had brief discussion with about it clearly feel very conflicted. They're on record as thinking all religion is controlling and misogynistic and all followers of religions are deluded and exploited, yet when it comes to Islam they seem happy to make an exception of these views and stress the need to be 'sensitive to views'. This case being no exception. They would never extend that sensitivity to other religions and certainly wouldn't support the reintroduction of blasphemy laws as that would mean they could never watch and laugh at The Life of Brian and similar ever again.....

What is the particular circumstance in Batley that has caused this reaction then I wonder? Where I stay, usually disgruntled parents telephone the headteacher or spam the class whatsapp group when they're unhappy about something school related. They don't protest outside the school about their grievance, requiring a police presence, forcing a teacher into hiding, closing the school and necessitating a fulsome and public apology from the headteacher before any investigation has been completed. It's frankly a ridiculous and frightening state of affairs.

SnackSizeRaisin · 27/03/2021 21:49

it is OK to insult someone's religion, or at least it should be. It's not something I would do as I'm a Christian and wouldn't do it out of respect, however I do believe others have the right to if they choose as I totally believe that people have the right to believe or not - no religion or religious beliefs should be forced upon anyone.

I don't agree that it's ok to insult a particular child's religion in a school setting. Insulting religion can easily feel like persecution or bullying. Particularly when it comes from a position of power and the child is in the minority in the class.

That is different to an abstract discussion of particular aspects of a religion. Or a discussion between two equals. Ok it may be legal for me to say to you as a Christian that your beliefs are a load of rubbish and have been nothing but an excuse to abuse the powerless for centuries (for example) but I would never say such a thing to a teenage child in school.

Not believing something is completely different to deliberately insulting religious believers.

mumsiedarlingrevolta · 27/03/2021 21:50

Agree

SharonasCorona · 27/03/2021 21:51

I haven’t even read about what’s happened in Batley. I don’t live anywhere there, don’t know anyone there and don’t have an opinion on what’s happened.

Just because we’re Muslim doesn’t mean we have the mental energy to have an opinion on everything affecting Muslims.

And there have been backlashes by Hindus when they have felt their religion was disrespected.

TV ads have been banned featuring Ganesha in Australia because Hindus found them offensive.

I don’t have any pictures in my house due to my religion but really couldn’t give a crap what anyone else does!

WireFan · 27/03/2021 21:51

@dontsaveusername back at ya!

Of course I don't support those things. And they're in no way comparable to what is being discussed here.

My question about censorship was in response to your earlier comment, below, where you seen to be saying not only that the image shouldn't have been shown at the school but also that it should never have been published due to its offensive nature. That's censorship, no?

'If the cartoon/picture (which was offensive if CHs other cartoons were anything to go by) hadn't been printed in the first place it wouldn't have offended anyone's fragile sensibilities. This cartoon was deliberately offensive and designed to upset people. It was not necessary to print it. It served no purpose but to deliberately offend. It did not promote free speech. It was as shitty as the trolls who cause such havoc on social media with outrageous views.

And many many Muslim leaders spoke out against the tiny minority who are violent extremists.'

Flaxmeadow · 27/03/2021 21:51

That is pretty unfair if true. Why should a pupil be expected to make some kind of public stand in order to not have their religion mocked in school?

What makes you think the teacher or the school was mocking the religion?

If the teacher thought it may be offensive it's up to them not to show the material.

Many things are offensive but why shouldn't it be up for discussion

How about "let's all discuss whether this picture of a black man depicted as a chimp is offensive, if you think you may be offended please leave the room" when there is one black pupil in the class.

I have been a pupil in school lessons where this kind of imagery was presented in class. During history lessons on USA civil rights. This was in West Yorkshire decades ago. In a class full of children from all backgrounds and heritage, including Jamaican and Pakistani. No one took offence because we all understood that it was a lesson. A deeply interesting and informative history lesson by a great teacher

Xenia · 27/03/2021 21:53

Yes. We are a free nation (other than CV19 legislation)

Je suis Charlie

Cadent · 27/03/2021 21:56

@Xenia did you post #JeSuis when 54 Muslims were shot dead in New Zealand?

SnackSizeRaisin · 27/03/2021 21:56

What is the particular circumstance in Batley that has caused this reaction then I wonder?

Who knows. White right wing nutters have also been known to completely over react to perceived slights. They have even been known to murder people. Certainly it's not unique to Muslims. Right now I think there are a lot of very angry people about. Probably due to lockdown.

WireFan · 27/03/2021 21:57

@SharonasCorona

I totally get that. The mental energy point. Similarly I found it bizarre that so many Muslim commentators on an earlier thread about all this were annoyed at non-Muslims people for failing to call out all instances of Islamophobia.