Is anyone else sick of anti police/some of the younger generation in general?

[fizzypop19]

I'm 29 so in no means "old" but I don't know what's happened the past couple of years.

I was bought up to respect police, not break the law. Obviously I have, underage drinking etc yet I've never been in trouble with police. Twitter is full of 17-20 year olds slagging off the police for breaking up protests etc hello we are in a pandemic and I'd really like to be out of lockdown soon?

Was also bought up to not judge anyone by their skin colour, religion, sexual orientation etc I have friends who are gay, black, white, Muslim, Jewish yet none of them understand this whole she/her announce your pronouns stuff, we all just respect each others preferences/views/religions/self identification.

Is anyone else feeling sick of this or am I alone???

Yes they need more money, that's the reality. With the cuts to funding the threshold is unfortunately high for what gets followed up and what doesn't

Exactly, and still people on many threads talking about defunding the police. It's bonkers

I feel sorry for the ones that do attend our burglaries and assaults because they know they can't do anything. They apologise for it

Yes, it's the laws, many aspects that perhaps need to be looked into. The police is probably who people mainly interact with and who get blamed as a result

Yes they're the public face of a system that doesn't work, as I said upthread I blame the CPS and policy makers. But I don't think the police are blameless, as per the GMP article I posted earlier the police have been stopping stuff before it gets to the CPS

Also, de-funding the police doesn't mean what alot of people think it means. It means taking funding away from tactics that don't work. Where it has been done in practice in cities in America it was alongside an increase in tactics and projects that do have proven results.

And I expect if they do similar reviews on overworked London forces they'll find the same thing.

I always thought my former friend was a lovely woman until she became a police officer and I saw a totally different side of her. It was like a power trip for her, she just loved it. I remember going out with her and she was judging anyone who wore a tracksuit, apparently in police training they’re told to look out for the three T’s - tracksuits, trainers and taxis (the latter are often used as getaway cars apparently). She invited me to a pub quiz with two of her police pals once and I stopped being friends with her soon after. They were all continuously mocking people they went out to see from homeless people through to people they considered beneath them who were ‘having a domestic’. They had a real laugh at vulnerable people’s expense and I felt rather disgusted by it all.

I know that’s a small snapshot but I don’t think they’re alone. I do think a lot of police officers enjoy the power trip. I was pulled over for having a back light out a few weeks ago (I obviously had no idea it was out) and the police officer spoke to me like I was a piece of shit.

Where it has been done in practice in cities in America it was alongside an increase in tactics and projects that do have proven results

With the state things are in all over the world I think perhaps we need to do both. Definitely increase positive tactics and projects and have a sufficiently funded police force TBH

In the cases in America the funding is still directed to the police they just aren't allowed to sink it into whatever they want, ie more guns, more pumped up officers and instead they've concentrated on community policing and trying to build a better rapport with citizens. In some places it's worked

Fair point Chanjer

I have police officers in my family, including one who 'polices' the police.

I have great respect for them and for what they have to do (attending sudden deaths/gory accidents/distressed people in horrible situations etc) I understand why a bit of black humour can help to let off a bit of steam.

What we do need is a recognition though that there are officers who should have never been given the job, their character is totally unsuited to the job, they become officious little hitlers or at worst corrupt.

Blind respect is not a good thing, it has to be earned.

One more thing regarding de-funding:

In America it's a relevant conversation. Whilst I think that American and UK police is too reactionary one America is by choice and doctrine and in the UK it is by necessity. There are individual police forces in America that have budgets comparable to whole countries police budgets

The UK police force has been actively getting de-funded for years, working with insufficient budgets means that when they shift their focus onto the crime de jour it necessitates cutting services to other aspects of policing. This isn't acceptable.

How many people itt know someone who's been murdered? (Virtually none, thankfully) How many know someone who's been burgled? (Most, I imagine) How many people know someone who's been sexually harassed or abused? I mean 97% of women in this site have been directly victims of crimes that the police just don't have the resources to deal with. There are approximately the same number of murders every year and that number doesn't change regardless of spending. Whilst it's obviously very important that those crimes are investigated and prosecuted we are currently accepting this at the expense of the investigation of crimes that affect everyone directly. This doesn't make for a happy society

I am interested in suggestions people have for when they are victims of crime and perpetrators? Are people advocating for an alternative set of roles in the community that can assist/protect them?

For some of the tasks often put on the police, yes. I think funding would be better spent on different community role -- and that all of those roles, police included, should have outside good governing bodies or other means of dealing with issues and ways to check the powers given to them by the state. Some areas do this well, others not so much, and some people have funny ideas of what the police is for.

One of the popular US images that rolled around last year or so involved a bear in town and people going 'I'd bet those who have issues with the police would call them for this' which was met other people pointing out that, where that picture was taken, a bear is an animal control issue, not a police issue. Most police do not have the training or equipment to deal with a bear beyond lethal force, and to some people, that seemed to be okay even with other options available.

There is a heartbreaking UK case that I think the BBC did a piece on - vastly oversimplified: a Black man, in the middle of a mental health crisis who was found laying in a field who had the police called on him and he was forcible restrained by the police which led to his death. I don't think the police should have been involved in that, I think we need things better structured so that the police aren't treated as a hammer and that every issue is a nail. That's too often when people get hurt.

I think the police have become a catch-all service and because of that have been given far more powers to match and now the Home Office wants to give them more. As already said, changing the practicalities of that is very difficult, but I think it's important if we're going to prevent more tragic deaths where the police's legal ability to use force in a way most people legally can't is more properly focused.

Funnily enough, all of the police detractors I've come across have been the kind of people who are either likely to end up in a police cell or who believe their minor inconvenience should be the police's no.1 priority.

I've never been in trouble with the police. I did live with brother under house arrest for a year, police were in my home a few times for domestic violence between my parents, I saw my mother arrested, and I've been a witness at incidents where someone else has called the police.

I actually don't think my parents or my brother or any of my other relatives who've had issues with the police deserve to be treated worse by the police than I do. I also wouldn't call the police unless I was ready and willing for them to use full force as part of their duties and, as I said, I've chosen to do that once in my life so far, and even that was the non-emergency email as the threat was not immediate.

Not all police are bad and the irony of people moaning ' about the police' as a whole while moaning the police dont treat people as individuals is lost on some people

With some people who go ACAB, I can see that argument, but most people I know are referring to the police are talking about the system of policing and their own experiences.

When I talk about corruption in religious institutions or how medical abuse isn't handled properly, I'm not talking about every religious person and I'm not saying medical abuse isn't ever handled well, but that there is a systemic issue that incentivize or protect terrible behaviour and those who whistle blow or try to do the right thing are often met with so much resistance and disincentives and sometimes worse.

In the UK, this is in large part a low funding and that too much has been put on the police's plate issue. In the US, as already said, this is largely a too much uncontrolled spending and a political choice that force makes right and that some communities are free to use them as a weapon as they see fit, which is why other communities are often wary at their involvement. Some places are trying to change that, often through more community roles and controlling how the funding can be used.

@ThrowingAShellstrop

Yeah, you don’t really seem to understand the situation here OP.

The OP sounds to be one of the most grounded people I've encountered on MN for a while.

I spoke to an ex police woman about the police in the US. She said that when we see uniformed officers on TV we assume that the American force works similar to ours- that there is training , selection, CPD, regulation. In her view, the US police force works very differently. She said they are more like security guards who have been given a bit power and that is why they are so heavy handed.

Racial profiling (all profiling tbh) always ends up reducing things to these low markers that then can be used to create and challenge bias. Trainers, tracksuits and taxis could describe anyone coming from a gym. Any racism and sexism is obviously completely wrong but there does seem to be a skewed perspective here. I watched a video online of a man who deliberately goes to certain government buildings incl army and stands on the forecourts outside. When security ask him if he needs any help he challenges their right to ask him and then says don’t chew gum/take yr hands out of yr pockets, etc. Clearly something else is going on here but dealing with people like this when they are filming you and trying to provoke a reaction they can put up on their internet site is also provocative behaviour and wears you down.

I would never try and justify wrong behaviour from someone regardless of their public role but something is disproportionate to the numbers here.

I also think that the poster who said she was sitting on her ledge and doesn’t have to answer a question from the police about why she is sitting there is being stupidly obtuse. If, in the course of your working day you are called out to several incidents you have to understand the situation you are going into as the police have to make sure the area is secure for themselves and the public - that’s all they are doing.

The real danger here of course is that fewer of the right minds stay in front line policing as it becomes so difficult and instead we will end up with the worst kind of people doing the job (for less money and poorer conditions). That is what we are importing from the states and just as privatising health and education have created dissension, the right masquerading as the left will get us to dismantle all our good systems.

I also think that the poster who said she was sitting on her ledge and doesn’t have to answer a question from the police about why she is sitting there is being stupidly obtuse

tbf I was being a bit of a dick but it's quite surreal to call the police to report a crime and then be the focus of their unduly aggressive attention when they arrive

@thebabessavedme

Blind respect is not a good thing, it has to be earned.

Trust has to be there and if you are approaching/approached by police from a position where you don’t trust them then this is problematic as it sets up a tension. The police then react to that tension as they have to - they don’t know whether someone will pull a gun on them and spray the crowd, be having a mental health episode or be having a meltdown. They are people who also have to deal with the aggression thrown on them.

Someone who was a family friend was killed whilst on duty. He was Asian, loved the force and his role in it - an all round good guy doing the best for his city. His death became hijacked by the media for something else due to his ethnicity completely losing sight of his family’s wishes. They lost a brother and a son.

This all seems ideological to me and as OP said driven by an agenda that is at odds with how British society is structured which makes me think it is US driven. I certainly understand the race issue in the US but my concern is if we accept the US problems as indicative of ours we then change our behaviour to address this - but they are not the real problems in our society and we will dismantle the mechanisms addressing those. We will then create the very problems we have tried to avoid and the only losers will be the communities once again.

@fizzypop19

Please note the "some of the younger generation".

I obviously believe respect people who earn respect and as a white person I am extremely lucky that I haven't faced racism etc.

What I'm trying to get across is that I hope my children will never be racist, never have to title themselves as they can be who they want, never attend protests as they get violent and out of hand whether that's down to police or the actions of the protestors.

I'm just sick of it all.

This is actually quite ironic.

If your children are also white, then they will have freedom to approach these things how they want/ title themselves how they want/ not attend protests...because that's kind of the point of privilege. You can choose to ignore certain issues that other people can't choose to ignore because they are affected by them.... Just 'being sick of it all' is such a privileged position.

I know its a cliche but what's that poem of "First they came for the X, but I did not stand up because I was not an X..." or whatever. That's essentially how you're saying you hope you raise your children. Because they can get away without being affected by an issue, there's no point in standing up. And it sounds like you might be able to. Not particularly a method worthy of respect in my opinion, but each to their own.

When the state selects people to exercise power on its behalf those people have got to be beyond reproach. Even more so if they are armed.

I was always brought up to respect the Police and my DH is a retired officer. I now no longer have that blanket respect due to 3 incidents

The first was at a walking demo at a political party conference The match was all approved by the Police and council. The first part was policed by local officers who were pleasant as were the marchers. The second part was policed by the Met who were threatening and rude even though the marchers were still being polite. No arrests were made all day as there were no problems. The attitude of the Met did loose them a lot of previous support

The second and third incidents resulted in complaints about the actions of of officers in two separate incidents. I was very careful in writing my complaints and rewrote several times to make sure all relevant facts were included and remaking polite. The first complaint resulted in me being called a liar and a time waster. Luckily the investigating officer dug deep and managed to find body camera footage and email chains which managed to prove I was right

The third incident was handled very badly and took a year to be resolved The final report I was sent include paperwork from a senior office that was rude and disrespectful

I would always have been the first to dive in and help an officer in trouble now I think I would probably walk the other way

@Notanotherhun

I agree. I'm 34 and I honestly am a bit bored of the constant culture spats. It's basically a twitterstorm which is spilling into real life. Like you, was taught to respect police so I have absolutely no time for people who 'rage against the machine' and cause mayhem. The pronouns thing is annoying as well, who cares? Why do we have to care? We're people, this labelling has gone so far.

^^ I agree with this. I’m with you OP

@twelly

As I said there are exceptions in all professions, the police like other public sector workers are subject to a higher level of scrutiny and regulations than other roles. Their job is law enforcement and at times they will not be popular but we need a police force in my view as without that I think most people would live in fear.

Sadly I knew what it was like to grow up living in a state of wariness, if not always outright fear, in a house that was barricaded up at night with deadlocks and a dog kept as a guard on an estate that was not all that rough compared to others in the region. Many of us have already been abandoned by the police. When we do need them they are not there or are utterly powerless. They do, however, apparently have time and powers to harass people who think women are biologically distinct from men.

Ps I do not support violence against the police either, but I understand the building frustrations and tensions in a system where decency and equality under the law is slowly failing.

I am a Detective, 17 years. Majority of service I have specialised in violence against woman and girls, including serious sexual crimes and child abuse, now murder.

I am also a mother, daughter, wife, sister and friend.

I am also tired of reading about just how worthless I am, that what I do is never enough.

The majority of us, every shift try our bloody best!