My husband says “notallmen”

[Lastchancesalonco]

NC for this! My teenage daughter and I were discussing the current outcry regarding violence against women and women living in fear, my husband entered the room, and immediately said it “wasn’t all men” and now men were “scared to do anything” wtf??? Scared to what exactly? Terrorise women? it’s very relevant I feel that my husband is a police sergeant! And although we do live in a very very low crime area so he doesn’t personally deal with many murders etc it’s mostly petty crime I KNOW he deals with domestic situations and has previously been very vocal about protecting people in domestic situations etc. This is very out of character for him, when pressed he said he felt people were “taking it too far” calling for a “6pm curfew” for men, when my daughter, who I’m ashamed to say was more vociferous than me because I was stunned, pointed out she effectively had an unofficial curfew for safety reasons, he seemed flustered like he hadnt thought of that, then he said “men are scared of attack too” and I said “who from? Who from? Not Denise on her way home pissed from her hen night is it? No it’s MEN you are scared of OTHER MEN” anyway he reflected a bit and was apologetic but I’m worried, he never used to be like this? Is he hearing some extremist narrative at work that poor white middle class men are under attack because the system that gives them every advantage is trying to be dismantled? He works with women and even a transsexual officer and has never shown any sign of prejudice or anything but acceptance for them and up till now never said anything concerning but he literally said “not all men” did we say it was??? I dunno it’s made me a bit sick, and I can’t help but wonder how a man who was previously totally on my wavelength about these things has changed to “but what about me”
Especially when we have a teenage daughter who will be going off to uni soon and won’t be in her safe little village! AIBU to take this so seriously or was he just being a giant selfish man baby and truly sees the error of his ways?

It sounds like he engaged with the conversation and your daughter's points well. I think it's important to take seriously and I don't think there is a need to put his potentially hurt feelings first, but I also don't see the benefit in calling him a man-baby.

Have you learnt about what women go through in other countires? We are not second class citizens here in the UK.

Whenever I hear things like this, I'm reminded of someone, I think it may have been on here, a Pakistani woman who would be told that she should grateful that she's a city woman and not one of those rural woman forced to marry, and so on and so forth. There is always someone worse off. As an immigrant, I think things are a lot more complex than what country we're in.

I mean would you bloody say that all suicide bombers are Muslims, and we can’t tell which Muslims are suicide bombers? Or would you say that they are the absolute minority and going against what decent Muslims believe and do.

I'm a little tired of the Muslim comparisons - in the UK, we have systems in looking for and trying to deal with radicalization (and not just in Muslims), people in schools trained in PREVENT strategies, methods of radicalisation... how effective they are is another debate, but even in recognizing it's a minority, it's systemically recognized as a concern. We still have to wait til autumn for police nationwide to start recording

When my 7 year old daughter was sexually threatened by a 9 year old, where was

@PurpleDaisies

Is that malteaser thing the new cancel the cheque?

It is a useful analogy though

to start recording hate crimes by sex.

When my 7 year old daughter was sexually threatened by a 9 year old, where was the systems to ensure that boy and his peers were deradicalised? It's not there. There is no record. Many still don't view it as a concern to take seriously enough for their to be a policy. We've rising peer on peer abused, a largely sexed issue, and we're way behind in dealing with it.

Yes, there is an issue of tarring especially growing boys with the attitude that they're monsters. We have to consider how to ensure they can develop a secure self image growing into men.

Women though should be able to have a conversation about male-perptuated violence without kneecapping ourselves with some and sort ofs and maybes. Adults can get into a conversation and recognize that we shouldn't have to explicitly say not all men to be able to talk about the times men hurt us, just as when I talk about female-perpetuated violence and maternal violence, no one really expects me to say not all mothers, not all women.

Where is the outrage at the dispropriante amount of young BAME males who are stabbed to death in inner city estates? Where were their Vigils and social posturing?

Players are still 'taking the knee' at sporting events for black lives every single week.

It's interesting OP that you have a daughter and if she was ever sexually harassed or attacked by a man (god forbid) and your DH said to her 'oh but not all men are like that. Think of mens feelings too'.
How would that make her feel?

Hopefully as a father he wouldn't.

He has a daughter. Chances are she will be sexually harassed at some point, if not already.
He needs to realise what his opinion means for women as he is raising one.

I'm glad she called him out on it.

Have you learnt about what women go through in other countires? We are not second class citizens here in the UK.

^Yes, I do know. I help out a charity supporting Central Asian women, and their experiences are horrific. But that knowledge doesn’t make the childhood SA that my DSis and I went through as a child in this country any less damaging or the DA my DSis suffered during her first marriage.

It’s similar to those saying that there’s no poverty in this country because it isn’t as bad as that endured in other parts of the world.

The point was how do you engage people who you have tarred simply because they are men - that’s the point I was making - not moaning because of hurt feelings!

If you are demonised simply for being male, it’s easier to just stay away from the issue - guaranteed not to be bollocked for being male/saying the wrong thing. And that isn’t how we’re going to solve this. We are not warring factions. It isn’t men v women. How awful.

Who YOU have tarred simply because they're men? Who is this 'you'? Who is creating a narrative of warring factions here? Blaming a feminine 'other' for 'demonising' men is a prime example of the creation of warring factions.

Men have been 'tarred' and 'demonised' by the actions of other men. Those bad men, plus bad behaviours in many, many men, are the 'warring faction' they face, that degrades the reputation of all men. That faction is the obvious focus for their attention.

That's empowering isn't it? That 'good men' have a huge opportunity to create change by modelling good behaviour, influencing the behaviour of their acquiantances, pulling up their peers if and when they behave badly.

@Chanjer

It's just defensiveness I think, it's hard to get past that when your demographic is being "attacked" it's hard not to take it personally I think

One of the reasons that I think this particular conversation is a stumbling block for many is because from my generation (40s) of "right on" people the focus was very much based on the removal of stereotypes. So this feels counterintuitive to many people who see themselves as being progressive

Yeah I'm also 40's and absolutely agree. I think it's also why people of our age are the biggest objectors in the trans debate and what makes a woman a woman etc because it's very focused on stereotypes and putting men and women into boxes. Not that I don't see the difference between the NAMALT stance and trans issues, I do, one is very much based in stereotypes, the other is based on biology but I can see your reasoning here too

YANBU. Glad he got flustered.

Agree @Mittens030869!!! My DH and I were both raped as children, yet it doesn’t make him understand that the drunken middle aged men from his sporting club making offensive, sexual comments about me in front of him that make me uncomfortable and him puff up with pride are not at all minimised by him saying “They’re good blokes”.... (Have pointed out that I hate it and when he knows this and when he chooses not to defend me, I hate him, too.)

@TheJerkStore

The point is that the curfew, even though it was suggested to get tongues wagging, wouldn’t do anything to help femicide—it’s partners who rape and kill, by and large.

What he means is "I'm not".

And that's valid.

But the point of reflection is that he knows he's not a danger but the woman he's walking behind at night doesn't know that.

Until attacks are reduced ajd carried out nearer a 50/50 rate by men and women then he, and other men, will be viewed as a danger.

So he needs to be a proper ally and challenge small and large acts of unacceptable behaviour that leads some men to act that way.

Perhaps he could set up or join some work focus groups, or think about how he can help young children (boys) step away from ingrained behaviour.

I was dumbfounded to hear a woman say she encourages play fighting by her 5 year old with his big brother's to "toughen him up", just the message thst sends is awful.

Women get angry about this because they are not listened to. They bring the spotlight on this and they are still not listened to.
It is still brought back to men.
Let women have their say. Let women talk about their experiences because they happen. They happen all the time

Doesn't mean it's not happening to men but let women talk about women.

You can talk about breast cancer without saying hey men get cancer too. Of course they do.
Same with violence.
Men are attacked too, but let women have their voice.
It's not difficult

[quote UsedUpUsername]@TheJerkStore

The point is that the curfew, even though it was suggested to get tongues wagging, wouldn’t do anything to help femicide—it’s partners who rape and kill, by and large.[/quote]
I am well aware of this. I have personal experience unfortunately.
However, it's all part of the same debate - male violence against women.

The best tweet I saw about this topic was one that pointed out that for most women their outside life ends when it gets dark. Men generally don't have to think like this - they don't have to plan their day around the fact that they can't go for a run, walk the dog etc. when it gets dark.

When my 7 year old daughter was sexually threatened by a 9 year old, where was the systems to ensure that boy and his peers were deradicalised? It's not there. There is no record.

I think a lot of youngsters have come to realise they can do pretty much as they like.

@Treaclepie19

A good way to get the point across is that post that's being shared saying "men who say Not All Men should be locked in a room full of snakes, not all venomous"

YANBU.

I’d be concerned. He has a daughter and is in the POLICE! He should be setting a good example.

It may not be all men - but it is TOO MANY MEN. Go on the Femicide census website run by Karen Ingala Smith and show him the stats. It’s chilling.

As to men not being able to “do anything”. Good. They need to learn to leave us alone; if we’re interested in them, we’ll let them know!

It's not all men, but it could be any man.

I have genuine sympathy for the male victims of (vastly predominantly male) violence. But can anyone leaping up and down to make the point that men are victims too explain why that only ever seems to get raised when women want to talk about their own experiences of male violence? It's almost as if it's only important to some people if they can use it as a way of shutting up women?

@Chanjer

My ds actually said to me, I feel like I am a piece of shit because I am male and white

Tell him to pull himself together. He is top of the pile

My ds actually said to me, I feel like I am a piece of shit because I am male and white

He has inherent privileges based on sex and ethnicity. It's not a bad thing if he reflects on that. The way not to be a 'piece of shit' is to not act like one. I'm not at all saying he does - obviously I have no way of knowing that.

Sorry, I didn't mean to quote the previous post. Why, oh why can't we get an edit button?!

And as others have said, it isn't just direct violence that makes women feel unsafe. It's the harassment, the sexist insults, the unspoken physical intimidation, the not taking 'no' for an answer. It's only a few months ago that a newspaper ran a story about a student who was trying desperately, with flyers and letters and the like, to track down a young woman he'd spoken to once in a public place. The story was pitched as though it were some wonderful tale of romantic perseverance rather than the huge red flag of "creepy stalker" which it actually was.

Finding it hard to imagine that there are many men steeped in police culture who can manage to continue to be good eggs, tbh.

The police are not on our side.

@fromdownwest

People talk like men can walk around without any worries or concerns for their wellbing at all. I have lived in some serioulsy ropey areas and was constantly on edge if I did walk around late at night.

Where is the outrage at the dispropriante amount of young BAME males who are stabbed to death in inner city estates? Where were their Vigils and social posturing?

TBF I don't think anyone's said they can and there is plenty of outage at other atrocities/murders.

Girls have a drip drip of micro aggressions which often start the minute their bodies develop. Things ramp up when they enter the word of work, socialise in pubs and club. Rape and assault are all too common too soon. It's not just (and I'm dismissing this) murder it's also everything before.

The elephant in the room? All of the above and most violent crime is perpetrated by men. This is what so many women are saying.

If anyone is interested Baroness Lawrence is hosting a virtual event on 29 March a discussion on how her sons legacy is inspiring change for good across the nation. It's free for all to attend.
on how Stephen’s legacy is inspiring a change for good across the nation.

[quote UsedUpUsername]@TheJerkStore

The point is that the curfew, even though it was suggested to get tongues wagging, wouldn’t do anything to help femicide—it’s partners who rape and kill, by and large.[/quote]
Yes you keep saying that, everybody knows that and nobody is seriously suggesting the curfew. The fact is that men are more focused on jumping to be defensive about the curfew analogy, rather than take the time to realise it was just that rather than a serious suggestion, and (crucially) actually care about the issue of male violence towards women.

It's all a bit Schrodinger's cat.
When 'not all men' or 'all men' are the options, you believe it's 'all men'. It's the only one that keeps you safe. This is the curfew women are under.