Inheritance issues causing a massive tension in the family.

[ThornAmongstRoses]

My DH and his sister have no relationship with each other. It’s not that they actively dislike each other, it’s more that there’s just nothing there, just total indifference. They may see each other yearly at a family get together or something but there’s no contact in between those times, not even a text message here and there.

My FIL lives relatively close to us so is very involved in our lives (no problem at all, he’s a lovely man) and since he lost his wife (DH’s mum) just over 4 years ago we’ve taken him even more into our fold to ensure he doesn’t get lonely.

We live near the Midlands and DH’s sister and family live near Skegness. His sister comes down about once a year to see her dad and will stay for about a week with her partner and their children. FIL doesn’t go and stay with them though as with their two young children, and the fact the house is quite small, there’s isn’t really any room to accommodate FIL for any period of time.

Anyway, FIL has always said that when he passes away he would want his property sold and split 50:50 between DH and SIL.

However, last week he dropped a bombshell that he’s sold his house and is moving up to Skegness and will be having a Granny Annexe type Cabin built in SIL’s garden for him to live in.

We have seen the brochure for the Cabins and they are beautiful and cost about £100k to £130k depending on size and style.

We asked how on earth he would fit one in SIL’s garden as they only have a small garden and FIL told us that SIL is going to sell her house, and then he (FIL) is going to give SIL £90k from the sale of his own house and his contribution will allow for a mortgage big enough to her to buy a larger house with a big enough garden for his Cabin to be built in.

FIL’s house has already been sold for £250k and has said he will give £25k to my DH. The remainder will be used to give £90k to SIL (so she can buy a bigger house) and then the cost of building the Cabin.

SIL is waiting to start a new job which will enable them to pay the increased mortgage payments on whichever house they buy, compared to the payments they have for their current house.

My DH is quite upset as not only is SIL being given £90k, she will then also have a much larger house to show for it, and after FIL’s passing, a nice £120k accommodation in the back garden which will no doubt add a lot of value to her property.

DH is more upset as the 50% inheritance that was earmarked for him was mainly going to be for our children as we were going to put it into a university fund for them to use when they’re older.

FIL has also asked if he can come and live with us whilst everything “at the other end” gets sorted, which we have already said yes to.

FIL has got to leave his house at the end of April and has told us he’ll probably only be with us for a few months, but SIL hasn’t even started looking for a house yet, never mind the two months it takes to build the Cabin when the house has been bought.

It’s all such a mess.

There’s underlying tension brewing and I’m worried it’s going to cause a huge fracture in DH’s and FIL’s relationship and also that DH’s and SIL’s relationship will go from one of apathy to one of rivalry.

Are inheritance discrepancies a typical cause of family feuds? Is DH right to be feeling a bit irked by it?

Rather than the £125k that was supposed to be his fair share, he’s now getting £25k out of the whole £250k and everything else, in effect, is going to SIL.

Considering that Sil isn't close to her father and her partner has neither interest nor friendly towards him, you can be absolutely sure that any temporary interest or tolerance they may have for him because of the money will be forgotten about so quickly

I think we need to recognise that although this is the ops view, of people she barely knows. It is clearly not her father in laws view. And highly unlikely to be that of the daughters. Or even her partners.

I’ve chatted to my DH and he’s firmly of the stance that FIL is a grown man, he can make his own decisions (even if they’re the wrong ones) and that if it all goes tits up then be it on his father’s head.

In all honesty I think you guys are being naive. Not about what happens this year, but about what happens in 3-4 years if your still not that old really FIL starts to hate living in his DD's garden or falls out with her partner or a neighbour and has literally nowhere else to go but back to you.

You are well within your rights to ask about what his contingency plans are. I think the stuff about inheritance is a red herring. You could end up having him in your home for well over a decade if he gets tired of living in a fancy shed.

Don't be too passive about this stuff...

Maybe lockdown has contributed to extra loneliness and it's making him agree to anything because hes a bit desperate? If you can persuade him to slow things down and rent for a while, maybe in the next year some sorts of social activities for older people might start to reopen?

Missed your last comment. Do look into all this. Better to risk putting noses out of joint now than deal with a disaster in a few years. And it's not like it's none of your business when you're being expected to give him a home now.

My mum was in a similar situation to SIL, albeit she was close to her mum and had a relationship with her siblings.

Elderly relative sold her home and went to live in an extension my mum added to her home. The house sale paid for the extension and the remainder was split between all the siblings. They bitched and moaned about the unfairness of it and how my mum was benefitting from the situation. My mum went on to spend 17 years caring for her increasingly incapable mother with fuck all help from her siblings, at a great personal and financial cost, and now is left with a home that’s been on the market for 3 years because people don’t want to buy a home with a granny flat.

It is bizarre that you are so close to FIL and yet he never came to you to ask for help with selling his home, or suggesting he wanted to move in with one of his children, presumably as he was struggling on his own. He’s obviously closer to SIL than you had thought given they have discussed all of this and come to an agreement.

I suspect there is more to this story, but in the end, he can spend his money how he likes and you deciding you deserve more of it because you were nice to him is really grubby.

One idea would be to be listed as a legal part owner if the house. This could stop FILs money being taken by an ex in a split. In addition if SIL dies young FIL could force a sale if her partner met someone new that FIL didn't like. My cousin's half sister died suddenly very young, it does happen. It also needs to be discussed if FIL can move a new partner of his own into the cabin, and whether that new partner would be made homeless if he died, or SIL would let her stay. If FIL insists on signing the money over as a gift against all legal advice and all sense its unfair if after being warned repeatedly it all goes wrong and he expects you to pick up the pieces.

Even if he becomes a part owner of the house, wouldhe lose the cabin completely should a move happen?

So in effect losing a full property & just being left with a share?

If I were you/your DH, I'd try to keep emotional reference to SIL out of this while having the discussion. Don't make it 'us against her'.

Emphasise that your only concern is your FIL.
Has he sold his home to quickly, cheaply?
Won't he miss his two grandchildren, football, close relationship with you two?
What are the tax implications of his decision?
What are his ownership right?
What if he needs to fund care?
What if SIl's relationship breaks down?
What if BIL won't welcome FIL into the main family home?
What if SIL doesn't get promoted?
What if planning permission isn't granted?
Wouldn't a separate bungalow have all the benefits he's hoping to enjoy at the cabin?

I don't think it's unreasonable for your to admit that he's hurt about the secrecy and pace, but he emphasis should 100% be on FIL's future financial security and well-being.

Hi OP - read your updates. no matter what happens your FIL needs legal advice - he cannot just gift SIL £75K without any of the necessary legal / financial paperwork being in place. He will find himself answering questions about money laundering, disposal of assets and there are inheritance tax implications.

Secondly, you really really need to set a limit on how long FiL can stay with you, especially as he won't be contributing to bills etc. It's fine to help someone for the short term but there's no long term solution here.

@MintyMabel

And now is left with a home that’s been on the market for 3 years because people don’t want to buy a home with a granny flat.

It's not true that people don't want homes with granny flats, some people look for precisely that either for a relative or to provide rental income.

If its been on the market for 3 years she has been badly advised by her estate agents. There's either something wrong with property or with the price. (Most likely the latter).

[quote TatianaBis]@MintyMabel

And now is left with a home that’s been on the market for 3 years because people don’t want to buy a home with a granny flat.

It's not true that people don't want homes with granny flats, some people look for precisely that either for a relative or to provide rental income.

If its been on the market for 3 years she has been badly advised by her estate agents. There's either something wrong with property or with the price. (Most likely the latter).[/quote]
I could totally envisage a scenario where a granny flat would be a liability or the one that's there not suit even someone who does want one - too large, too small, badly built, hideous eyesore, takes up too much of the garden

OP Has your FIL actually sold his house? Has he exchanged? Has he completed?

Even if he has exchanged, he can pull out, there might be fines but sounds like he could make that back when he puts it on for a realistic price later

Knowing the exact status of the house sale is important for your chat later

@FourDecades

I'm not convinced the cabin will ever appear

I am 100% convinced the cabin will never appear

SIL seems to be walking all over FIL, DH and you and your dc.

You can (and I think morally that you should) counsel FIL but he gets to make his own mind up.

So does DH, so do you. DC needs parents to stand up for their interests. I would not be allowing SIL to take advantage of me if I were in your shoes. I would tell FIL that you have decided not to allow him to move in on the basis that if that happens you believe SIL will never provide the promised accommodation for him.

Unfortunately, the Fil will not be protected by any kind of ‘checks and balances’ , he’s perfectly entitled to give his money away to whomever he likes.

Also, If no legal documents are drawn up he is very vulnerable.

There are three instances where it DOES matter - if he dies within 7 years then inheritance tax might be due, he could have a large life insurance policy that hasn’t been written in trust and is part of his estate or other assets which when added to his gift take him over the limit.

The SiL and her partner are joint owners of the property and they split up and he wants his half, or she dies and he gets the lot.

@MintyMabel

My mum was in a similar situation to SIL, albeit she was close to her mum and had a relationship with her siblings.

Elderly relative sold her home and went to live in an extension my mum added to her home. The house sale paid for the extension and the remainder was split between all the siblings. They bitched and moaned about the unfairness of it and how my mum was benefitting from the situation. My mum went on to spend 17 years caring for her increasingly incapable mother with fuck all help from her siblings, at a great personal and financial cost, and now is left with a home that’s been on the market for 3 years because people don’t want to buy a home with a granny flat.

It is bizarre that you are so close to FIL and yet he never came to you to ask for help with selling his home, or suggesting he wanted to move in with one of his children, presumably as he was struggling on his own. He’s obviously closer to SIL than you had thought given they have discussed all of this and come to an agreement.

I suspect there is more to this story, but in the end, he can spend his money how he likes and you deciding you deserve more of it because you were nice to him is really grubby.

He can spend his money how he likes, but Op and her dh should not be expected to have him live with them for an indefinite period If FIL is close to SIL he should go and live with her in Skegness , rather than inconvenience Op and her dh

My FIL invested his money (and kept investing when it is needed) to his father’s new business, but it was under his father’s name. Ran the business for a long time. Then his father sold his business to retired. When he sat down to talk about the money he got from his business, the lawyer ask what about my FIL. His response was, I gave enough money to him and his son so split my inheritance to two of my daughters. When my FIL heard about this, he was furious and never talked to his parents since.

So don’t trust family to handle everything fair

Being generous, perhaps sil has got good intentions - but she's 26. She's looking short term rather than long term. Baby sitter on tap, chance to get closer to dad, bigger house, be around in his old age etc.
BUT she's 26, he's a fit 65 years young.
She's got no idea what she's letting herself in for as he gets older, and had no idea of the actual realities of looking after an old, infirm person. It's pie in the sky and far into the future for her, even if she does have good intentions now. The naivety of youth.

So maybe she's not the evil cow that we all initially thought, but it's still a car crash waiting to happen.

@theleafandnotthetree

Sure, or the rest of the house may need work. Or it's near a railway etc.

But then you drop the price accordingly.

As someone who's worked in elderly care, albeit some time ago, I'm wondering what on Earth is going to happen if he soon needs considerable care, I'm no expert on the legal/financial side but certainly back when I was caring I know there were rules about deprivation of assets within certain time periods that meant that elderly people were denied support to be provided with care.

That needs looking into for starters.

The speed of his house sale and his willingness to go along with his daughters plans that seem fairly obviously not to his benefit suggest to me he may well have recently received some very worrying news regarding his health, has there been any indication of this? Is he looking well?

Cos to be honest, it sounds to me as if he's had a diagnosis of something seriously wrong and a prognosis that he may not be around for much longer.

I suspect this has led to Sil and partners speedy actions - but again even Sil and partner may not realise themselves that there are rules around deprivation of assets and inheritance and time limits and tax etc currently 7 years I believe

Something smells very fishy that's for sure

It all sounds a massive disaster waiting to happen!

I'm also deeply concerned at the possibility fil could well be paying for a bloody good house that not only isn't in his name, but also isn't in Sil name if she's just starting work but in Sil partners name and then if Sil and partner split or even if Sil dies (it happens) then fil is up shit creek! Partner is quids in!

Op you could also be right that sil was in trouble financially and this has all been done to bail her out!

This isn’t about inheritance it is about him potentially being left homeless

Totally agree

If sil were posting I'd be asking if she understood and was fully prepared to be a full time carer potentially within 10 years, while she still has young dc, and not to expect partner to help, I'd advise her to check the legal and financial ramifications re potential deprivation of assets rules, I'd be asking what the rush was for - was fil seriously ill? I wouldn't be assuming all was fine and dandy!

The style of cabin he's thinking of, I could be wrong but I believe if it includes a bathroom and/or kitchen that this may make it liable for separate council tax have they accounted for that? Also in the building of it there are certain aspects they cannot do themselves and must have regulated professionals built in plus as has already been mentioned they'd likely need planning permission.

Because SIL’s partner wouldn’t allow it.

Says it all really doesn't it!

They aren’t married but have been together for about 10 years.

Which is no guarantee they won't split and as they aren't married anything put in sil partners name is effectively - and possibly in the future really - gone for good!

Dh wants to leave fil to it - will he still take that stance when it all goes belly up and fil is homeless, in need of care and can neither afford it himself nor is eligible for state help and so comes running back to him for help? At which point what are the chances YOU will likely be the one expected to provide that care and housing?

Like hell would I be accepting that in your shoes

Canny and cruel plan

I agree, I reckon there will be many delays and "unforeseen obstacles" to the plan that have been foreseen on this very thread!

Normally wouldn't advocate, but I'd be showing dh this thread!

Don't be on at the kids to be quiet or stress about the state of the house more than usual, you're doing fil a favour he needs to appreciate that and you need to relax in your own home. Plus if you tiptoe on eggshells like that, eventually it'll get too much and you're more likely to blow up one day and possibly at the wrong person and/or too much

I think you should accept the 25K and put in a bank savings account. Then, when SIL and partner have bled your FIL dry and he needs to move into a retirement home, you can give it back to him, which might give him some options.

Yep I've been thinking similar!

Tbh with all the nervousness and delays in the financial market and construction etc at the moment i can easily see it taking 5 years possibly longer for this plan to come to fruition - not even kidding, uncle works construction and its a mess at the moment for a number of reasons, i also have a friend works in council planning - funnily enough in roughly the same part of the world and she's saying they're massively backed up!

Can you afford to support fil for 6 months, a year, 5 years?

his father knows his own daughter.

Ha! Plenty of times parents see their children through rose coloured lenses, especially those they barely see! My mother totally indulges my sister, bails her out on a monthly basis and has spent £10,000's on various plans and get rich quick schemes - if you've seen "parenthood" the film, she's like the youngest in that. Other than regarding my sister my mother is an intelligent, street wise and savvy person but she has a total blind spot regarding her! And this is far from unique! Plenty of mners and people I know in real life with similar experiences

I've certainly seen it within elderly care too - the child/ren that visit regularly, bring well thought through items and gifts, take a genuine interest in the care their parents are receiving... treated with familiar disdain. The child that rarely visits, brings unsuitable gifts if any, bugs them about how much it's all costing, only ever complain about the care they receive while understanding nothing of the issues their parent has ("why are they being fed that mushy crap?" They're being fed a soft diet because they can barely chew and have difficulty swallowing, "why are they wearing those horribly nappy things?" Because they're incontinent and if they didn't they'd be distressed and their skin would end up a mess "why are you taking the sweets I just gave them off them that's cruel!" Because they're diabetic and no longer mentally able to regulate their own intake etc) and promise to come more often and don't - treated like saints/favourites! I saw it all the time!

This is a mess and it needs sorted ASAP with proper legal and financial guidance for fil

he cannot just gift SIL £75K without any of the necessary legal / financial paperwork being in place. He will find himself answering questions about money laundering, disposal of assets and there are inheritance tax implications

Money laundering is covered by the sale of the house, disposal of assets only comes into play if he can’t fund a care home if/when he needs to and there are no inheritance tax implications if he lives for seven years after making the gift. So, yes he can just give away any sum of money he chooses.

The more I read the more dodgy the whole thing sounds. .
So many things are baffling

1. a healthy active 65 year old setting up a care plan more suited to a much older and sicker person
2. putting his house on the market without mentioning it to nearest relative he sees several times a week.
3. selling his house in just five days and accepting the 1st offer immediately, again without discussing it with nearest and dearest
4. Only revealing this when asking if he can stay with you for about two months .... making sure he has your agreement to this before the whole story unravels and it becomes clear He could be staying with you for 2 years or perhaps longer
5. the SIL needing the cash immediately, before her new job is presumably confirmed and lack of clarity about mortgage, and your father’s entitlements, or if a suitable property has been found or planning permission
6. the two of you thinking that agreeing to two months of FIL means you have to agree to everything else because despite the fact that he has effectively lied to you and gone behind your back ...
7. the fact that your FIL can see no flaw in any of this despite the many gaping holes the whole thread has Instantly pointed out. This just doesn’t smell right. Perhaps Your SIL and BIL have convinced him he is in a vulnerable position and are encouraging your FIL to liquidate his assets as quickly as possible. Why would they do that and at such speed? Future Inheritance tax avoidance? or care home fee issues? They may have worked out it’s easier to do this now while he’s still fit and active

You two will be facilitating this scheme, Which could be massively disadvantageous to FIL, at the expense of your own family and sanity, by agreeing to take full responsibility for FIL for an unspecified time because you initially agreed to take him in for two months.

The only way this scheme races ahead is if you two agree unconditionally to host him for the next two years or more, despite the impact on your own house hold.
A poster earlier pointed out that sometimes saying No may seem harsh but is kinder in the long run.

Interesting thread! Your sister in law may be naïve rather than Machiavellian. It’s good your DH is getting her side of the story. It sounds as though your FIL may have found lockdown especially hard and is thinking this will give him easier company and constant access to grandchildren (thinking he’ll see more of them than he does now) but I suspect neither he nor SIL have thought through the implications and it certainly sounds as though they don’t know much about the legalities. I don’t think at 26 I’ve would have either. I bet the cabin is because BIL wouldn’t have him in the house so they’ve thought of this as a compromise! Those cabins are not long term investments and won’t see him out—as well as what everyone has said—but I think if you hear her side of it you may be surprised. Definitely stand your ground. If you’re involved to the extent of having him live with you, then you need to be involved in the decisions as well!

Just to add that if it gets as far as mortgage applications and house buying then sil will have to declare where the extra £90,000 deposit has come from. They like to know were everything has come from and will be fearful that fil or the local authority might want the money back if he has to go into care before the mortgage is paid off.

I think everyone is being hugely naive that this plan is feasible.

So DH has spoken to his sister who said the plans about FIL moving up there have been ongoing for about 6 months but only really became a serious consideration a few months ago which is what led to FIL putting his house up for sale.

SIL said that FIL had passed comment that he’d love to live near the beach in the same breath as saying he wanted to see the grandchildren more. She said she and her partner had suggested the house-share / cabin arrangement to him as her partner thought it would be less stressful for FIL. FIL had said he would be happy to look around for a small house to buy but SIL told him it would just be easier this way (as in the cabin idea). SIL had said that obviously they’d need a bigger property so suggested that if FIL was happy to share the cost of a bigger house than they’d be happy for him to have a Cabin in their garden.

She said that FIL knows that the money in his house needs to be freed up before SIL and partner can look for a new house (so they could prove they could afford a bigger mortgage) which I why it’s been done so quickly.

When asked where she thought FIL was going to live upon selling his house, she had said, “well we (her and her partner) just assumed he’d live with you for a while.”