AIBU to ask if we can have a sensible discussion here about Shamima Begum?

[StephenBelafonte]

I just don't understand the hostility towards her by the british government. Surely as a 15 year old she was radicalised and brainwashed.

I genuinely don't understand why the government is so harsh towards her. Unless they know something we don't. I feel so sorry for her.

@Usagi12 not if you are terrorist https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/611149/Chapter11_Module4.pdf

It is evident that the relevant legal provisions are far from precise and efficient. However, it is abundantly clear that Ms Begum is legally a citizen of Bangladesh until she attains the age of 21 years. Thus, the claims of the Government of Bangladesh and some others that Ms Begum is not a Bangladeshi citizen owing to the fact that she does not hold a Bangladeshi passport or any other proof of citizenship, has never submitted any application for dual nationality, and has never visited Bangladesh, have no legal basis.

Therefore, as of February 2019, Ms Begum is legally a Bangladeshi citizen. Consequently, the decision of the Home Office to deprive her of her British citizenship does not legally render her stateless. Hence, the measure is not unlawful insofar as the issue of statelessness is concerned. Although, it may very well be unlawful on other grounds, whether under British law or even international law.

www.ejiltalk.org/shamima-begum-may-be-a-bangladeshi-citizen-after-all/

@MishaHarrow thanks for not snapping at me. I farbled over that post, trying very hard to be really clear about what I did actually mean!

And I don't disagree with any of the rest of your worries. In the 21st Century that seems to me to be utterly bizarre.

Last I heard we were all innocent until proven guilty or is that not a thing now?

It's not about that. Actually, the lack of evidence against her counts as a negative because she wouldn't be able to be locked up if she returned. Worse than any crime, her feelings are all wrong. She should have expressed more remorse or at least cried on camera. Also, other people committed crimes and she didn't condemn them properly, so because of that, some of their crimes kinda stick to her? Also, she had sex with a terrorist when she should have kept herself for nice.

@Quitecontrarymarie That was my first thought, too - that she's getting advice on how to spin a more acceptable image. She doesn't seem to have had the wit to work this out for herself.
Also, it seems that she is still in contact with the so-called husband, even if the marriage wasn't legally valid.

Yes!

A sensible person.

One traumatized and brainwashed woman is not going to bring down the entire country. Shamima may have been a good student but she had when I heard her speak I heard a woman in over her head with no common sense.

The government are paying this for popularity, it's disgusting.

Yes, I have the sensible opinion that she made her choice, appeared to revel in it at the time and showed no regret UNTIL she realised the government weren't going to roll over and give in (astonishingly). She should be in prison, as should others who chose to leave this country and join terrorist organisations. You make your bed, you lie in it. Or appparently you whinge and cry when you're not allowed back, claiming racism, ageism, grooming etc etc.

I don’t get why she is not on trial in the country she fled to and took part in ISIS. That’s what her crime is. There are loads of UK criminals overseas in the US and Australia jails where they committed a crime, got time snd are usually deported back here once they’ve completed it. She hasn’t committed a crime here, so I don’t think she’d get a custodial sentence of any significance. Why isn’t she being tried in Syria(?) where she was part of the brutality of ISIS? Put her on trial there and lock her up. When she’s done, she would have to be sent back here.

It's hard to hear her continue to justify her actions and hatred, but I agree with other PP, she was groomed as a young - and I would guess - not very bright - teen and appears to me to essentially still be being abused/gaslighted/brainwashed by those around her.

I don't believe she will be a continuing threat. I would like to think responsible people would prevent that.

In my heart of hearts, I think she should be allowed to return and her beliefs challenged.

Who is going to challenge her beliefs?

She was 15 and groomed. She had her citizenship revoked on sketchy grounds. Where was the safeguarding before she even left? Why did no one ask why 3 15-year-olds weren't with their parents? What did WE do wrong to make her feel comfort from a man (terrorist) in a war-torn country? The whole thing is just unbelievably sad. She needs to come back and be tried for all the things she has done. However, it's not a normal decision for a 15-year-old girl to make, I really do wonder why no one was looking after her enough.

She showed no remorse, the "Bridge Killings" few years back, the man who drove the car at those people, had aparently been "de-radicalised.

so we don't have enough evidence for a trial for terrorism but we have enough to (illegally) strip her of her citizenship?
Schrödinger's Terrorist?

As for having a trial where she is: Syria is not a functioning country at the moment.

In my heart of hearts, I think she should be allowed to return and her beliefs challenged.

In my heart I want to ensure that my child is safe and therefore she and other terrorists should not be allowed back.

I find it bizarre how some people are seemingly pinning every Isis crime/killing on this one teenage girl.

Also regarding remorse shown/not shown, how much remorse could she show while surrounded by other isis loyal people?

She is victim of the ‘adultification’ of black and brown children.

I agree. She was a child. It's appalling. I think there is just so much public hate toward her that it's politics rather than fairness.

@nannybeach

She showed no remorse, the "Bridge Killings" few years back, the man who drove the car at those people, had aparently been "de-radicalised.

Yes. There are things known about “deradicalisation” that are deliberately not being publicised, and of course there will have been risk assessments about likely future terrorism levels undertaken at the highest levels and by the most relevant agencies.

There have been one or two very good long form articles about these issues. If I remember the details, I will post the links.

@Shoxfordian

As far as I understand it, she still holds those views, unless she’s said otherwise and I missed it. If isis were still invading places and winning territory then I don’t think she’d suddenly want to come back either.

Generally gillick competence for medical or other treatment is considered to be 12 so at 15 she’s over that age, I do think probably more easy to manipulate but I don’t totally buy the idea that she was completely blameless and vulnerable

She planned going there on her own so took a good amount of autonomous action to go there by herself so she was going of her volition

I think like most things it’s a grey area in many ways

I don't think we have any idea what her views are. She is in a camp with who knows how many ISIS enforcers, she can't speak freely. She might still feel the same or she might not.

Do you think the girls who were groomed in Rotherham were Gillick competent?

So glad to find a thread on Shamima Begum that is not about hysterically denouncing her as a national security risk. I completely agree with you, OP.

@BigBamboo

I don’t get why she is not on trial in the country she fled to and took part in ISIS. That’s what her crime is. There are loads of UK criminals overseas in the US and Australia jails where they committed a crime, got time snd are usually deported back here once they’ve completed it. She hasn’t committed a crime here, so I don’t think she’d get a custodial sentence of any significance. Why isn’t she being tried in Syria(?) where she was part of the brutality of ISIS? Put her on trial there and lock her up. When she’s done, she would have to be sent back here.

So we get to send criminals back to their country of birth, remember the planes going to Jamaica a few months back, but other countries have to keep our criminals.

@HeartsAndClubs

I don’t believe there were any children. Just a ploy to garner sympathy IMO.

She was pregnant and gave birth in the camp, which does have rudimentary services. That baby then died. So I imagine at least that pregnancy, birth and sadly, death were officially recorded by professionals and administrative staff.

It’s a bit tinfoil hat to deny she’s ever had any children, even if you want to question the number of DC she’s had. A simple medical examination would prove it.

@Wearywithteens

“SimonJT I found it ironic that on international womens day people failed to support a woman who was groomed as a child, married off, raped and suffered the loss of three children. It reminded me that it should be renamed international white womens day.”

What a load of bollocks. That young woman consented to the marriage and just the other day was delighted to get a birthday card off him. She is still a brainwashed, radicalised Isis bride whatever ‘Chat Magazine’ headlines you out on it.

15 year old children can’t consent.

Who says she was raped? She married the man willingly.