AIBU to ask if we can have a sensible discussion here about Shamima Begum?

[StephenBelafonte]

I just don't understand the hostility towards her by the british government. Surely as a 15 year old she was radicalised and brainwashed.

I genuinely don't understand why the government is so harsh towards her. Unless they know something we don't. I feel so sorry for her.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

why dont we strip people of citizenship for knife crime, muggings, murder, etc... That is starting to happen, Rochdale etc.

It's impossible when the person is here and doesn't have a dual nationality!

My fear isn't for the individuals but the countries that are left holding them!

But here is my concern, it only affects the black and brown british citizens again. (The government has tried to strip people of citizenship and deport them, who have never even visited the country that they are theoretically entitled to citizenship to)

So if youre white british, youre 99% going to be fine and allowed to stay regardless of your crime.

So its basically a law that makes black and brown people 2nd class citizens imo.

We as a country should be leading by example in following international law and morality - stripping a person who at 15 left here having been manipulated into believing in a terrorist groups is poor judgement

@RandomLondoner i think you are wrong when you say this:
"I think it's generally a misconception that you "apply" for a nationality you are entitled to through your parentage. You either have it or not, from birth. If you have citizenship of another country because your parents are from there, you can apply for a passport, which will make it easier to prove to their immigration people they should let you in, but it's not possession of a passport that gives you a right to be there. (I guess this could differ from country to country, but I don't know of any countries that don't work like this"

One of my DC was 'born British' but the other, born earlier, was 'entitled to British citizenship' but had to apply to 'register' as a British citizen to be British. This involved him filling in a lot of paperwork, and having two British professionals who have known him personally for two years certify that he was of good character. Now the registration paper has come through, he can apply for a passport. If Bengladesh had a similar policy she might not have gotten that citizenship. It was pretty outrageous of the UK government to assume Bengladesh (or Iraq, or Syria, wherever she is) would look after her, when she's clearly our home-grown 'problem'.

She is in a refugee camp, where I'm sure there are plenty of staff working for refugee agencies who could get her back.

AnneElliott
Exactly - people seem to miss this!

People are living in a fantasy land if they think we can just ‘lock her up.’ What for? Where is the evidence? Witnesses? Proof? ..... a thousand miles away in Syria. It is not illegal to hold anti British / western views. Her ‘crimes’ would be almost impossible to prove beyond joining isis which would not attract a heavy sentence if one at all as she was under age.
She’s have to be watched round the clock / guarded around the clock both for her safety (vigilante attack) and for terrorist reasons. But she’d be instantly found by terrorist groups - she would be a poster-child for them and probably disappear underground in days ... then what?
Can you imagine the fury if she actually then fronted an attack? It would probably bring the govt down.
I’m not saying I agree but I think that’s the reason the Govt are crossing their fingers and hoping she goes away.
MN seem to have a very odd idea of the law in this country ... the Govt can’t just lock people up because they don’t like them (thank god!) so they’d be bringing her back and setting her free.

*Where on this thread has anyone said she should be allowed to return and live where she likes? nowhere, because we are all pretty much of one mind that she is actually guilty of some pretty heinous crimes. Your children are safe from her.
*

Plenty of people are crying “poor girl, she should be brought back and rehabilitated.” That presumably implies that people do actually think that at some point she should be released from prison in order to live a “normal” life in British society.

Or is everyone on this thread of the opinion that if she comes back she should remained locked up for life? I doubt that.

And if further down the line she is rehoused somewhere then plenty of people will say “well she has to go somewhere,” and then any children will be attending school with innocent children, potentially exposing them to the isis ideology. Unless of course she were sterilised which again the bleeding hearts would protest was against her human rights poor love.

If she is in jail she will have little opportunity to groom anyone.

I also wonder how people think she would be able, in Syria, with ISIS to have any way of becoming "un-groomed" (or brainwashed or coerced). The lack of empathy here is astounding - again: she has committed heinous crimes and hasn't an ounce of empathy* herself for victims of terrorism. But we pride ourselves on our British Justice system. Except for this one woman, apparently. She must rot in hell where others have been tried and jailed.

I really don't get it.

*empathy may be the wrong word. There appears to be zero understanding of the position a completely stupid 15 year old got herself into. And zero willingness to get her out of it. Or help her get out of it. We can't de-radicalise her if we leave her in Syria. We may even be double-plus-radicalising her.

She showed no remorse when she was interviewed. In her interview by Sky news they asked her did you know what the Islamic state was doing before you left for Syria? Because they beheaded people.

Her response was: yes I knew about those things and I was okay with it. Because you know I started becoming religious just before I left. From what I heard, Islamic ally that is allowed so I was okay with it.

So on that basis, no she should not come back. She made it clear she knew what she was walking into.

Unbelievable

@MishaHarrow I get what you are saying but sometimes a cohort of a society does things the other cohorts don't.

And some of the women who went to IS and are still there, or dead, are white. They won't be coming back either!

I get that this is a race issue. But sometimes such issues are cultural, or rather they do happen and are hidden within a culture. Denying that leads to the shambles of the Rochdale investigation in the first place.

It isn't clear cut, not at all easy, when race actually does have a bearing on something!

we are all pretty much of one mind that she is actually guilty of some pretty heinous crimes.

Believing that is one thing. Having evidence that will stand up in court and secure a conviction is quite another. How do you go about building a case against her? Who and where are your witnesses?

She’s not 15 any more. She’s an adult.

Sometimes we do things at 15 which can affect our whole lives. Some girls fall pregnant at 15 for instance, they then have to deal with being a parent from a very young age and all that that entails.

Some 15 year olds commit crimes, and those crimes will remain with them for life.

And some 15 year olds watch beheadings and think “oh yeah, I gotta get me some of that.” And are rightly branded as terrorists for the rest of their lives.

If she’d run away last month it would be a different matter. But as an adult she has defended the ideology of isis, has delighted in the murder of innocent civilians. This isn’t a video game she’s playing which she can switch on and off at will. This is real life, and she’s responsible for her part in it.

If she is in jail she will have little opportunity to groom anyone.

Of course she will. Unless she's kept in solitary confinement 24/7.

I found it ironic that on international womens day people failed to support a woman who was groomed as a child, married off, raped and suffered the loss of three children.

It reminded me that it should be renamed international white womens day.

Richard Huckle was allowed to return to the UK, we have no evidence he killed anyone but he ruined lives.

I'll say what I always say, if she is not a danger there is no need not to let her back, if she is a danger then Britain can deal with that danger better than Syria or Bangladesh.

I've read that prisons are the biggest hotbeds for recruitment go terrorist groups. It's a massive problem. It's best she stays where she is.

I don’t believe there were any children. Just a ploy to garner sympathy IMO.

@SimonJT

I found it ironic that on international womens day people failed to support a woman who was groomed as a child, married off, raped and suffered the loss of three children.

It reminded me that it should be renamed international white womens day.

Problem is it isn't that simple, is it, Simon?

I want it to be! But I don't think it is!

Actually @SimonJT reading the post just above my reply to you, I may just have done a complete about face on the whole thing!

@Effic

AnneElliott Exactly - people seem to miss this!

People are living in a fantasy land if they think we can just ‘lock her up.’ What for? Where is the evidence? Witnesses? Proof? ..... a thousand miles away in Syria. It is not illegal to hold anti British / western views. Her ‘crimes’ would be almost impossible to prove beyond joining isis which would not attract a heavy sentence if one at all as she was under age.
She’s have to be watched round the clock / guarded around the clock both for her safety (vigilante attack) and for terrorist reasons. But she’d be instantly found by terrorist groups - she would be a poster-child for them and probably disappear underground in days ... then what?
Can you imagine the fury if she actually then fronted an attack? It would probably bring the govt down.
I’m not saying I agree but I think that’s the reason the Govt are crossing their fingers and hoping she goes away.
MN seem to have a very odd idea of the law in this country ... the Govt can’t just lock people up because they don’t like them (thank god!) so they’d be bringing her back and setting her free.

Thank you (both) I tried to make this point upthread.

All the people saying bring her back and lock her up here or she should stand trial here haven't thought it through properly.

@Brefugee Where was her empathy when they were beheading people. She was ,okay' with it.

I’m no fan BUT she was 15. That’s younger than my now fast approaching 16 year old (who still has a telly tubby next to her pillow).

My heart breaks for her tbh and the life she should have had but is now lost forever. She was a child used by adults. The way she's being treated is disgraceful.

[quote CuriousaboutSamphire]@MishaHarrow I get what you are saying but sometimes a cohort of a society does things the other cohorts don't.

And some of the women who went to IS and are still there, or dead, are white. They won't be coming back either!

I get that this is a race issue. But sometimes such issues are cultural, or rather they do happen and are hidden within a culture. Denying that leads to the shambles of the Rochdale investigation in the first place.

It isn't clear cut, not at all easy, when race actually does have a bearing on something![/quote]
Im not gonna lie, you may have a point in that last paragraph.

But then theres the question of where do you draw the line, and it becomes a slippery slope?
E.g. is knife crime commited mainly by X demographic, are moped robberies commited by Y demographic, is fraud commited by Z demographic and so on.

It just conerns me that for the same crime, a brown person and white person will suffer different consequences. I do understand the logistics of why you cant deport a white British person or stop them returning to the UK, but deep down it makes me feel like im a 2nd class / not as real a citizen as a white person.

One of my DC was 'born British' but the other, born earlier, was 'entitled to British citizenship' but had to apply to 'register' as a British citizen to be British.

Yes it looks like you can "register" to be British in some cases where you are not already British by birth. I didn't know that. (I was born and grew up in another country, always understood I could have a British passport as a result of having a British father, but didn't know until I wanted to come to the UK at age 22 that I was already British, as opposed to merely being able to apply.)

In any case, as I said earlier, my understanding is that SB was Bangladeshi from birth under Bangladeshi law. She didn't have to apply to gain citizenship, but she did need to do something to retain it, for it not to lapse on her 21st birthday.

I've yet to hear any details at all on the many crimes she's supposed to have committed. Last I heard we were all innocent until proven guilty or is that not a thing now?

I find it odd how many people have been manipulated into focusing on this story. Most people arguing strongly one way or the other have no idea what happened to other British people (male and female) who joined ISIS. They don't know understand the reality of life in Syria and seem to think a 15-yr-old is a child when few young people in warzones have the luxury of playing at being children.
I'd prefer everyone with a 'strong' view on it spent more time campaigning for the government to re-affirm their commitment to the aid budget; to stop eliding aid and defence (which puts everyone in refugee camps more at risk) and that they reconsider their foreign policy and arms deals.
Knowing people who work in refugee camps and war zones, I'm dumbstruck at how much attention this one woman is getting when our country is seemingly happy to let thousands of women and girls in insecure camps, often much younger than Shamima, and there through no choice of their own.