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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to ask if we can have a sensible discussion here about Shamima Begum?

520 replies

StephenBelafonte · 18/03/2021 12:39

I just don't understand the hostility towards her by the british government. Surely as a 15 year old she was radicalised and brainwashed.

I genuinely don't understand why the government is so harsh towards her. Unless they know something we don't. I feel so sorry for her.

OP posts:
FatCatThinCat · 18/03/2021 15:51

I confess I struggle to have any sympathy for her, she made her bed and all that, however I think the UK government are making a huge mistake in stripping her of her citizenship and refusing to allow her back in to the country. They're setting a precedent and no doubt in the future it will come back to bite them when they try to deport a foreign born criminal from the UK but can't as their country of birth refuses to accept them and strips them of their citizenship. If the UK does it to its own home grown criminals, others will do it back to theirs.

ViciousJackdaw · 18/03/2021 15:54

I think the use of 'grooming' shows a naive lack of understanding of 15/16 years olds, it's the cope out card. What excuse can they come up with for the Bulger murderers?

At 10 yo, Thompson and Venables were deemed capable of knowing 'right from wrong'. Begum, at 15 yo, is painted here as incapable.

As an aside, Begum is 21 yo now . Throughout this thread, she is referred to as a 'girl'. That would never go unnoticed in threads concerning other women.

Mummyoflittledragon · 18/03/2021 15:58

ViciousJackdaw
What those 10 year olds did was horrendous and they were treated abominably. We seem to have learned nothing from that.

Landofthefree · 18/03/2021 15:59

I think the government have done the right thing by leaving SB in Syria. She has never apologised, expressed remorse or made it clear that her beliefs have changed in any way.

Bythemillpond · 18/03/2021 16:00

The girl has been to hell and back

So have those who were affected by the Manchester Arena bomb attack

An attack that she thought was justified when she was definitely not a child.
I wonder how she justified sewing people into suicide vests so they couldn’t be taken off if the person changed their minds

MishaHarrow · 18/03/2021 16:01

I agree her punishment is fitting.

But what bothers me is that this creates a 2 tier system. I.e. brown people get stripped of citizenship, but if you're white then you just do your time and youre okay.

ConquestEmpireHungerPlague · 18/03/2021 16:03

Some harsh responses here. Let's hope none of these MNetters' children ever run off and join a cult and are radicalised into doing and saying appalling things. Or if they do, let's hope they're white, otherwise they're screwed.

I agree with you OP, and imo the UK have acted unlawfully in rescinding her citizenship, not that that's much of a surprise anymore.

Bythemillpond · 18/03/2021 16:04

But what bothers me is that this creates a 2 tier system. I.e. brown people get stripped of citizenship, but if you're white then you just do your time and youre okay

I don’t think that is correct. I am sure a white guy lost his citizenship

Silvercatowner · 18/03/2021 16:08

It's not binary. I can feel deep sorrow for the victims of extremism whilst still feeling sorrow for the misguided, deluded radicalised Shamima.

MishaHarrow · 18/03/2021 16:08

@Bythemillpond

But what bothers me is that this creates a 2 tier system. I.e. brown people get stripped of citizenship, but if you're white then you just do your time and youre okay

I don’t think that is correct. I am sure a white guy lost his citizenship

Yes, there would be an occasional white person it applies to. But generally it covers brown people.

Also, the next question is, why dont we strip people of citizenship for knife crime, muggings, murder, etc...

GoLightlyontheEarth · 18/03/2021 16:08

She showed no remorse when she first arrived in the refugee camp. I don’t think she has genuine remorse, she just want to be out of that camp. Any normal person would be disgusted and horrified by what Isis were doing with her support.
I don’t have any sympathy for her I’m afraid.

MishaHarrow · 18/03/2021 16:12

@GoLightlyontheEarth

She showed no remorse when she first arrived in the refugee camp. I don’t think she has genuine remorse, she just want to be out of that camp. Any normal person would be disgusted and horrified by what Isis were doing with her support. I don’t have any sympathy for her I’m afraid.
I agree.

But how is it any different to the hooded youths down the estate who go around stealing mopeds, carrying knives, stabbing people and robbing people. Why dont we deport all re-offending criminals? Of all ethnicities, inc white british. And if the lineage of white british person cant be traced back, pay another country a fee to take them and stick them in a camp there.

summeriscoming20 · 18/03/2021 16:12

Even if she came back to Britain it's unlikely there would be any justice served here. I'm surprised they haven't let her back in but definitely don't think she should ever be allowed back.

fruitbrewhaha · 18/03/2021 16:12

Yes, let hope none of our children run off to join a murdering death cult, I for one am definitely against either of my girls getting involved in blowing people up or chopping their heads off, that's for sure.

FFS, if your kids do any of what SB has done, you are fucking screwed either way. What do you want? Her to be invited back given a nice place to live and some therapy? She's a murdering cunt.

Bibidy · 18/03/2021 16:15

I think people might feel more sympathy for her if she'd ever shown any remorse for her choices.

She is not 15 anymore, and when I've seen her speak she has come across as entitled and almost smug rather than showing any remorse or regret at all. It's very obvious that she just doesn't want to be stuck in that camp - as anybody wouldn't - and that's her main concern.

HeartsAndClubs · 18/03/2021 16:15

The girl has been to hell and back my heart bleeds.

Far too many terrorist sympathisers on this thread. “Oh poor girl/poor victim/poor child.” Bollocks to that. She derived pleasure from watching beheadings, she sewed people into suicide vests, she agreed with the killing of the innocent victims of the Manchester arena bombings.

Anyone who can look at that and go on to say “poor girl” is no more than a terrorist sympathiser. IMO.

Doona · 18/03/2021 16:16

why dont we strip people of citizenship for knife crime, muggings, murder, etc...

The Rochdale grooming gang lost citizenship for rape. The government are taking away citizenship a lot more nowadays.

JollyAndBright · 18/03/2021 16:17

The thing is, she isn’t a 15 year old brainwashed teenager anymore.

She’s a terrorist who openly admits she has no regrets and feels no shame for what she has been a part of.
She’s been very vocal of her support of the Islamic state ideologies and has repeatedly attempted to justify the atrocities they have committed.

The only reason she wants to come back to the uk is because it all fell apart and now she’s stuck in a a refugee camp.
She even stated that the Manchester bombing was “a justified retaliation” and that she sees nothing wrong with rape and murder.

She poses an incredible risk of attempting to radicalise other young people if she were to be allowed to come back to the uk.

I don’t care if they are only blocking her return to make an example of her, it’s a good example to set.
If you choose to kill leave and join a terrorist group you will never be allowed to come back.

HeartsAndClubs · 18/03/2021 16:17

Perhaps rather than stripping her of her citizenship we should re-introduce the death penalty for anyone who leaves to join isis and then comes back. Wonder how keen they’d bee to come back then....

Bibidy · 18/03/2021 16:18

But how is it any different to the hooded youths down the estate who go around stealing mopeds, carrying knives, stabbing people and robbing people. Why dont we deport all re-offending criminals? Of all ethnicities, inc white british. And if the lineage of white british person cant be traced back, pay another country a fee to take them and stick them in a camp there.

But we don't bring back UK criminals who commit crimes around the world though? Those things you have mentioned are happening here.

If Shamima Begum had carried out an act of terrorism here then she would have been tried and sentenced here too. But she has done so outside of this country and so has been barred from coming back.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 18/03/2021 16:19

why dont we strip people of citizenship for knife crime, muggings, murder, etc... That is starting to happen, Rochdale etc.

It's impossible when the person is here and doesn't have a dual nationality!

My fear isn't for the individuals but the countries that are left holding them!

Lovemusic33 · 18/03/2021 16:20

There’s so much hate for this woman (girl at the time) on Facebook. I don’t tend to comment on any of them because my views seem different to a lot of people. I do think she should be allowed back to the UK but I also believe that she could be a threat, I think she should stand trial here and face punishment here. She shouldn’t just be allowed to return and live a normal life without anyone knowing her whereabouts. She was brain washed and groomed, I do feel for her but she’s also very damaged.

Brefugee · 18/03/2021 16:21

So who would want her living next door? Have her kids over to play? Wouldn’t you be afraid that the children of a radical ISIS loving terrorist would try to influence yours?

Where on this thread has anyone said she should be allowed to return and live where she likes? nowhere, because we are all pretty much of one mind that she is actually guilty of some pretty heinous crimes. Your children are safe from her.

Again: Jack Letts had another citizenship and Britain made sure to get in there first and strip his British citizenship. Canada couldn't do it because Britain had made sure it would be illegal.

Bangladesh has said they will not grant her citizenship. It's well and good saying "well, she can get it through her father" - he didn't apply at any time between her birth and her leaving to join ISIS and so that horse has bolted. The Netherlands are under absolutely no obligation to grant citizenship via marriage to someone who is sitting and rotting in one of their jails. How do people not get that in a post-Brexit country where many many people have discussions over citizenship and how it's not automatically granted to a spouse on marriage? Is nobody paying attention?

A lot of her problem is that she isn't little and cute and ill-looking. She seems fairly robust and seems detached from it all. She has said some things (see the sky interview above) that are absolutely daft considering she wants to be allowed back here. But again: we see post after post after post here from people - often adult women with children - who are in coercive relationships. Whenever they say "i feel it's my fault" everyone is (rightly) very quick to reassure them that it isn't in any way their fault and that coercion (grooming, brainwashing) is insidious and if you get caught up in it, it is really really difficult to get out.

As for the intelligence services knowing things - probably. Maybe. Maybe not. We won't find out, i suspect as all her records will be sealed for ever more.

Someone mentioned Venables and Thompson upthread. Well, of course, they were given new identities and it was believed (erroneously in one of their cases, i think?) that they had been rehabilitated in our justice/punishment system and allowed to go on and have lives outside of prison. Not sure how successful it was though.

mynewernew · 18/03/2021 16:21

I have watched her interview and there was no remorse for her action. It is a real danger that she could groom more teenager once in U.K. in my view the government made a good decision.

Skysblue · 18/03/2021 16:21

My understanding is that Britain (or any country) has to accept its criminal citizens back, but if, as here, there is dual citizenship, then one country can quickly strip the criminal of citizenship, effectively forcing the other country to take the criminal back and sort them out. There is usually a ‘race’ between the two countries to strip the criminal of citizenship, as whoever does it first gets to leave the other country with the problem. They aren’t allowed to both strip the criminal’s citizenship, because that is to make someone stateless, which is against international law.

So basically it is most countries’ policy, if it discovers an overseas criminal who has dual citizenship, to strip citizenship asap. Britain did what it and most governments usually do. It was done particularly fast because if she gave birth while still British, her child would be British but innocent, which would complicate things.

Here she was both British and Bangladeshi (although had never applied for a Bangladeshi passport, she was born a Bangladesh citizen). So Britain stripped her of British citizenship before Bangladesh noticed her, making her Bangladesh’s responsibility. But Bangladesh illegally refused to accept her back, making her stateless.

I know she was groomed, brainwashed and radicalised and I feel sorry for her, but Britain was following standard policy. Bangladesh should help her get to Bangladesh and then arrest and sentence her. She’s aready served a longer sentence than she would probably get for her very minor role as a soldier’s wife.

I do think too much weight had been placed on the things she said in that tv interview. She was in a prison camp filled with ISIS prisoners and at the time had a baby to think about. She couldn’t exactly say ‘I hate ISIS and I wish I never came here,’ she and her child would have been murdered by the other prisoners. I think the journalist who interviewed her and broadcast her remarks was pretty unethical. If she’d stayed below the radar (or if the journalist had simply informed her family and they spoke to a lawyer who informed the Bangladesh authorities thus enabling Bangladesh to strip her Bangladeshi citizenship first), she would have been deported to Britain and in a better but also more appropriate position.

She was radicalised in Britain following failures by Britain and by her family. Why is it so easy to see terrorist material on the internet here? You can’t in Dubai or China, they don’t allow this kind of polluting propaganda onto their servers... Why do our media talk of ‘honour killings’ and ‘jihad’ when they should be using words like ‘murder’? Britain’s total lack of control over its media and failure to regulate the internet/ child access to it, played a part in her ending up where she has. There is moral, though not legal, responsibility.