AIBU to ask if we can have a sensible discussion here about Shamima Begum?

[StephenBelafonte]

I just don't understand the hostility towards her by the british government. Surely as a 15 year old she was radicalised and brainwashed.

I genuinely don't understand why the government is so harsh towards her. Unless they know something we don't. I feel so sorry for her.

As I understand it the decision to remove her citizenship is legal and she can appeal, and the highest court in England has decided she does not need to be in England to make that appeal.

So what's unfair about that?

She can appeal, and let that appeal be heard, and let it's result be abided by.

All perfectly fair.

She says she can't appeal because her lawyers aren't allowed in the camp. She needs to be here in the UK. According to her.

How does it work for child killers, murderers in U.K.? Some of them are sorry, others are not. They go to jail. Many of them get released before their time is up. I don’t know that being repentant is a. Requirement for release from a U.K. prison. I mean, maybe it should be for crimes like murder and rape - but her treatment is different from people in U.K.

Other posters seen to express the view that being 15 means that she's not to blame. At 15 I was drinking cider in the park, trying cannabis....I wasn't joining a group that thinks that cutting a journalists head off because he wasn't the same region as me is the correct thing to do.

Experimental sexual activities at 15 are normal. Suicide bombers are not.

I find Britain’s stance on this odd. The U.S has allowed Sam Sally (American woman who joined isis with her husband and took her children to be radicalised and brutalised) to return home. She is serving 6 years in prison but her children can return to ‘normal’ life. If the USA can find it within themselves to accept ISIS escapees back I’m surprised the U.K. won’t, considering Begum was a child bride. I like to think we are a more compassionate country than that. Her last baby died in a camp when they could have both been returned home to Britain. A completely innocent child, the same way Sam’s children were innocent and deserve to live the rest of their lives somewhere safe despite the poor decision their parent made.

@MrsHookey

We have all made teenage mistakes and she is being pilloried. The girl has been to hell and back.

Teenage mistakes? Like staying out all night or getting drunk? Or do we also include running off to Syria, marrying a much older man, having 3 babies (allegedly) all of whom died without explanation, joining Isis and committing acts of terrible cruelty as"teenage mistakes". Naughty Shamima, let's ground her for a month... She is now an adult who looks very smug and has never shown an ounce of remorse. Let her rot in the camp, she made her choice and it was so, so much more than a teenage mistake.

I forgot to add that Samantha Sally is white. Could this have something to do with her being welcomed home to the US and offered a plea deal?

@Namenic

How does it work for child killers, murderers in U.K.? Some of them are sorry, others are not. They go to jail. Many of them get released before their time is up. I don’t know that being repentant is a. Requirement for release from a U.K. prison. I mean, maybe it should be for crimes like murder and rape - but her treatment is different from people in U.K.

Few of them are serial killers. They try really hard to rehabilitate them and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. We have got better at understanding that some people start killing young and never stop.

Women aren't always victims either. Rose west snd Myra hindley both had things they got from killing. Like shamina it was all about power, status and attention. Killing and torturing others made them feel good. Not everyone is a helpless victim of their upbringing.

"We have all made teenage mistakes"
I had a perm. She left the country, travelled through Turkey to join a terrorist organisation. Her terrorist organisation of choice set captive prisoners on fire while they filmed it. They beheaded captive prisoners and filmed it. She watched those before she left her comfortable home, free schooling and fre healthcare.
She married one of the 'soldiers' doing this and stayed with him for years. Only wanting to return to the UK when defeated.
There are types of people drawn to cruel and barbarous acts and age is inconsequential. There are children who torture animals and abuse other children. If a psychiatrist had questioned her as she was leaving, I suspect she'd be diagnosed as a sociopath and narcissist. She thought she knew better than the other girls in her year who stayed on to pass exams and get jobs.

I think the point that most teens experiment by drinking cider etc. neglects to take into account being brought up in a very restrictive religious setting in which you're told that your lot are the only ones with the truth and that all the other religions/non-religious people are wrong, or worse. I speak from experience. She probably - definitely - thought she was doing something right, and noble. Can't people see that she has been brainwashed since birth?

@annacondom

I think the point that most teens experiment by drinking cider etc. neglects to take into account being brought up in a very restrictive religious setting in which you're told that your lot are the only ones with the truth and that all the other religions/non-religious people are wrong, or worse. I speak from experience. She probably - definitely - thought she was doing something right, and noble. Can't people see that she has been brainwashed since birth?

She/they had enough savvy and freedom to access the Internet and to independent funds/to their passports to plan and execute their journey to Syria. So they at no point came across anything to show the ideology they were following wasn't all wonderful? Not completely restrictive?

@SmeleanorSmellstrop

It's heartbreaking. The poor girl.

Heartbreaking for the people whose heads she witnessed lying in rubbish bins, and which "didn't faze" her in the slightest. Her words.

The poor girl? Which poor girl would that be? The Yazidi girls who were raped and murdered by the people she associated with?

I have no sympathy for Shamima Begum who still clearly only wants to come back to Britain for her "foot long meatball subway" and still doesn't really believe she's done anything wrong.

@MaMaLa321 Exactly my thoughts on reading the thread title!

I think she potentially is a dangerous young person. I can’t tell whether she is stupid or wicked or both, but by her own admission is still an isis supporter.
I think it’s been demonstrated that deradicalisation does not work. I don’t want her near me.
However I don’t see why she, or any other Brits out there, should be Syria’s problem. I think the government hopes she will die out there and solve the problem.

www.lbc.co.uk/news/three-british-bangladeshi-syria-join-isis-win-appeal-against-citizenship-removal/?fbclid=IwAR2GMU7I8lVQBa0k-n9_mRiXBbiA6lIToNRCiG441AdAZDBPt4MDKSBqfIU

I assume that this means Shamima's got a good chance of having the decision overturned?

RedGoldAndGreene

I don't think so. The law in Bangladesh is that you can't have dual citizenship unless you're under 21. Those men were over 21, so they had automatically lost their Bangladeshi citizenship, whereas Begum did not because she had not turned 21 when her citizenship was revoked.

However, there is a clause about losing Bangladeshi citizenship if you declare loyalty to another country/regime that I think might apply? But nobody is mentioning it so maybe it doesn't apply for some reason. Maybe you have to be over 21 for that as well.

Either way, she's never set foot in Bangladesh. These sort of latent citizenships seem dodgy to me.

She is our problem, we should bring her back and do what we did with William Wallace as a deterrent to others.

I couldn't have less sympathy for her if I really tried, she made her bed, she can lie in it...

Mintychocolate - I don’t know if people in gangs do kill or participate in the killing of more than 1 person.

I think some child soldiers may have killed more than 1 person. I understand their situation may have been different in that many were coerced into it in the first place. But there have been people who have rehabilitated.

I’m not saying that she has no moral responsibility. But she was young when she did decide to run away - and I think that this is a mitigating factor. I guess perhaps we can take inspiration from S Africa’s truth and reconciliation? Granted, she does not seem to want to reconcile, and perhaps that should be part of the deal if she does come back. Maybe she agrees to indefinite prison sentence until she demonstrates she is no longer a risk?

@Marcipex

I think she potentially is a dangerous young person. I can’t tell whether she is stupid or wicked or both, but by her own admission is still an isis supporter. I think it’s been demonstrated that deradicalisation does not work. I don’t want her near me. However I don’t see why she, or any other Brits out there, should be Syria’s problem. I think the government hopes she will die out there and solve the problem.

You commit a crime in a foreign country you face justice in a foreign country. We can have this conversation once they deal with her, after a long imprisonment or worse.

She just wants soft British ‘justice’

Tbh if she was brought back how long would she survive?

I think her dream of living a quiet life in the uk is just a dream that is never going to happen.

What is a 'sensible' discussion?

Informed? With a full understanding of the situation? Rational?

Based on reason rather than emotion?

Some people demonise her whilst others excuse her because of her age and mention 'grooming'. Both sides are emotion based as far as I can tell.

@HermioneWeasley

There is a world of difference between grooming (which involves coercion and often alcohol and drugs) and someone being interested enough in Daesh burning people alive in cages to seek them out and be persuaded to go to considerable lengths to join their death cult.

I see zero evidence of remorse, she’s just terribly sorry her murderous caliphate didn’t come about and she’d prefer to be with her parents than a Syrian refugee camp.

The British citizen thing is a complete herring - she has no way of getting back currently so it makes no difference.

Save your compassion for the Yazidi women brutalised and tortured by her regime

This I was coming on to say the same thing

She is not just a victim

We have all made teenage mistakes and she is being pilloried

Teenage mistakes are getting drunk and being an idiot in public not joining the ISIS version of the Gestapo.

The simple and unemotional response pandemic is that the authorities know she committed serious violent crimes. She was part of the isis women's police and happily tortured and killed vulnerable women. And possibly their children. She has expressed no remorse. She almost certainly has a personality disorder and she will probably never be safe.

People like this are rare. But they exist.

The simple and unemotional response pandemic is that the authorities know she committed serious violent crimes

That’s not where the story began. Agencies in the UK knew she was at risk. They knew that 7 girls were at risk. They failed to protect them and made a serious error. 3 girls ran. 4 other girls were taken into local authority care to protect them from further risk of radicalisation.

They were taken into local authority care

She was part of the isis women's police and happily tortured and killed vulnerable women. And possibly their children

“Happily tortured* - I though you were going for explaining the unemotional response? The unemotional response here is that she was involved in ISIS, she undoubtedly witnessed atrocities and we gave no idea of the extent to which she was an active participant given that she was pregnant 3 times in 6 years. We don’t at this stage know exactly what she has done.

She has expressed no remorse. She almost certainly has a personality disorder and she will probably never be safe

This is absolute conjecture. You’re not in a position to diagnose a MH condition- and frankly if she has got an underlying MH condition that’s not an argument for the UK not taking responsibility for her.