AIBU to ask if we can have a sensible discussion here about Shamima Begum?

[StephenBelafonte]

I just don't understand the hostility towards her by the british government. Surely as a 15 year old she was radicalised and brainwashed.

I genuinely don't understand why the government is so harsh towards her. Unless they know something we don't. I feel so sorry for her.

Maybe. There have also been examples of extremely poor practices in protecting women especially in the UK

We've seen vulnerable young people slip through the net before and it's still happening. On a wide-scale

Yep. SB and 6 other girls nearly all slipped through the net. In the end, 3 went to Syria and the other 4 were put into local authority care to protect them from the risks of radicalisation.

It's a flawed and simplistic view on what are two very different situations

It’s actually based on quite a lot of research, but okay.

What do people think about child soldiers? I think the grooming aspect is taken account of in most situations in U.K.

It gives context - eg 15 year old who got involved in gang stabs someone. Or gets involved with a cult where people are assaulted. We are rightly concerned about people in positions of responsibility (eg teachers) having relationships with pupils, even if they are technically over the age of consent. So why can we not see some mitigating circumstances here?

We don’t definitely know that she has killed someone. How about people who make weapons? Did we punish everyone who worked in a nazi weapons factory in WW2?

I do see the point about waiting for application to be processed though - and can see why we may choose to take a refugee or asylum seeker.

She is 21 years old. Hardly a child.

@SmileEachDay

Maybe. There have also been examples of extremely poor practices in protecting women especially in the UK

We've seen vulnerable young people slip through the net before and it's still happening. On a wide-scale

Yep. SB and 6 other girls nearly all slipped through the net. In the end, 3 went to Syria and the other 4 were put into local authority care to protect them from the risks of radicalisation.

It's a flawed and simplistic view on what are two very different situations

It’s actually based on quite a lot of research, but okay.

And what about the hundreds of girls coerced into the sex trade each year? The vulnerable children in the care system who disappear and are unaccounted for?

The system fails them. Yet you use it as an example to liken them to groomed terrorists... Errr okay.

When the system works, I'll defend it. For now, you cannot equate girls being groomed into the sex trade with those being groomed into extremist organisations. Just because organisations use the same methodology, doesn't mean they end up in those situations due to the same process of grooming.

Vulnerable children are failed in so many ways by local authorities, the government and the law. And it's naive to think their practices are ideal, even if it is based on 'research'.

Please give some insight into why you think it's better she come back to the UK

Because she was a child who was radicalised here, having spent her entire life here.

Because the UK authorities failed to protect her - missing clear opportunities to do so.

Because removing her citizenship is the UK government dumping all of this on (nominally at least) Bangladesh- a country who arguably have less to do with her than Syria given that she’s never been there.

Because it’s appalling that the UK government exploited her potential dual nationality (which Bangladesh then refused to allow)

@Namenic

What do people think about child soldiers? I think the grooming aspect is taken account of in most situations in U.K.

It gives context - eg 15 year old who got involved in gang stabs someone. Or gets involved with a cult where people are assaulted. We are rightly concerned about people in positions of responsibility (eg teachers) having relationships with pupils, even if they are technically over the age of consent. So why can we not see some mitigating circumstances here?

We don’t definitely know that she has killed someone. How about people who make weapons? Did we punish everyone who worked in a nazi weapons factory in WW2?

I do see the point about waiting for application to be processed though - and can see why we may choose to take a refugee or asylum seeker.

Child soldiers are usually coerced into it. Out of threat to their lives and those of their loved ones.

SB chose to join ISIS. She was not coerced.

There is simply no comparison with child soldiers! She didn’t grow up in a war zone, she lived a privileged life in Bethnal Green, FFS.

@Namenic In addition, ,Begum stitched suicide bombers into explosive vests, so they could not be removed without detonating'. So yes, she killed them.

@SmileEachDay

Please give some insight into why you think it's better she come back to the UK

Because she was a child who was radicalised here, having spent her entire life here.

Because the UK authorities failed to protect her - missing clear opportunities to do so.

Because removing her citizenship is the UK government dumping all of this on (nominally at least) Bangladesh- a country who arguably have less to do with her than Syria given that she’s never been there.

Because it’s appalling that the UK government exploited her potential dual nationality (which Bangladesh then refused to allow)

Why is it relevant where she spent her life? She may have spent her life here, but it's also a country she actively is opposed to in her ideology.

Can you explain how the authorities failed to protect her? What were the clear opportunities?

I don't agree she should be going to Bangladesh either. It's not their problem. She should stay in Syria and face trial there. It's there that she commited the crimes. Same as if a foreign national commited a crime here, they face trial here.

@BooomShakeTheRoom I agree that she should be prosecuted in Syria, which she tried to avoid as she would most likely face a death sentence.

Can you explain how the authorities failed to protect her? What were the clear opportunities?

Police had become aware that SB and a group of 6 other children were at risk. They interviewed them, without telling the parents. They sent the information about the interview home with the girls in a letter.

3 girls ran.

4 didn’t - those 4 were then taken into local authority care to protect them from the risks of radicalisation.

I don't agree she should be going to Bangladesh either. It's not their problem

In which case, would you agree that removing her citizenship was wrong? Because they were only able to do it by using her potential dual citizenship.

I'd rather not read all the comments as I get upset easily over such subjects but I'm with you OP. Thank you for your sensitivity and your ability to see the bigger picture here.

@HermioneMakepeace

She is 21 years old. Hardly a child.

She was 15 when she was groomed and left the UK.

@Shoxfordian

As far as I understand it, she still holds those views, unless she’s said otherwise and I missed it. If isis were still invading places and winning territory then I don’t think she’d suddenly want to come back either.

Generally gillick competence for medical or other treatment is considered to be 12 so at 15 she’s over that age, I do think probably more easy to manipulate but I don’t totally buy the idea that she was completely blameless and vulnerable

She planned going there on her own so took a good amount of autonomous action to go there by herself so she was going of her volition

I think like most things it’s a grey area in many ways

No there is no grey area to a British citizen being stripped of their citizenship regardless of their crimes , not to me anyway. She should never have had her citizenship removed and nothing could convince me otherwise . The government's outrageous decision to strip her of UK citizenship has no shades of grey in it. It is just a wrong and almost certainly illegal decision.

As to the rest we can argue her crimes and an appropriate punishment . That is a completely different argument for me and I can see shades of grey there .

@SmileEachDay

Can you explain how the authorities failed to protect her? What were the clear opportunities?

Police had become aware that SB and a group of 6 other children were at risk. They interviewed them, without telling the parents. They sent the information about the interview home with the girls in a letter.

3 girls ran.

4 didn’t - those 4 were then taken into local authority care to protect them from the risks of radicalisation.

I don't agree she should be going to Bangladesh either. It's not their problem

In which case, would you agree that removing her citizenship was wrong? Because they were only able to do it by using her potential dual citizenship.

It worked though. She now can't come to the UK and Bangladesh aren't accepting her either. If Bangladesh were forced to accept her then I'd say it was wrong but seems to be the right outcome.

Wow, you feel ‘so sorry’ for this horrendous specimen who willingly and knowingly ran off to a war zone to aid in the of killing innocent men, women and children in truly horrific ways?

Unless there are SEN’s which this woman apparently doesn’t have, a 15 year old knows right from wrong. Most 2 year olds do in fact.

Save your pity for the innocent men, women and children she helped kill and feels were ‘justifiably’ killed just for attending a pop concert.

Thousands of innocent people all over the world, young and old, were murdered, raped, tortured and abused today. This woman should hold absolutely no importance to anyone.

I think we should save our compassion for the women who were her victims. Some of whom were raped and had their children killed in front of them.

Anyway the uk has decided she's an unacceptable risk to national security. So they must know something and all of the speculating in the world won't change the outcome.

I think those who desperately want her back have never been the victims of very violent crime. It's very easy when life has been cushy to think this way. I think you'll find the people you idolise and have so much compassion feel very differently. They don't care whether you live or die. You're just another western liberal to them. Otherwise no one would kill charity workers would they? But they do kill them. Dogooders like this are just another stupid westerner interfering to them.

Besides you may want to fill our prisons with them but I'd rather that money went to the NHS.

In fact I would rather the money went to properly supporting the utterly traumatised victims who have bravely made their way here, instead of this self serving publicity seeking girl taking up space in the headlines. Why do we never hear from the real victims? Why aren't we supporting them? S as md don't say it's because she's British because this is most definitely not about patriotism!

She was 15 when she was groomed and left the UK.

Yes, and she’s had 6 years to reflect on that and STILL holds the same extremist views. She is beyond hope. All we can really hope for is that she is is somehow stopped from killing anybody else.

It is hard for people in cults to leave. That is acknowledged. All these weird cults that get people to pay in money, or worse, groom others to come live like them while they are assaulted by leaders; and murder-suicides.

I think her environment is significant and the fact that she joined at 15 is too. I don’t think she should be high on the list to come to U.K., but expecting cult members to Deradicalize on their own without support is a bit unreasonable.

@Namenic and if these cult members kill people? Should we just let them off?

No - but we should try and de-cult them, especially if they entered as a child. There have been kids who have murdered other kids that have gone to prison and released afterwards (they don’t usually stay in prison from 15 to 70/80).

We understand that they are young and very likely to have been influenced by external factors. I guess I just find people’s attitudes a bit out of step compared to other crimes in this country.

She should stay where she is. Why should we pay to keep her, in prison or otherwise. She shows no remorse.

No - but we should try and de-cult them, especially if they entered as a child.

But she doesn’t want to be de-culted, so how does that work? She has witnessed the worst barbarism of modern times. She has murdered people by sewing them into suicide vests. She has seen people burned to death in cages. She has seen people beheaded. And her response? “I am OK with it.”