AIBU to ask if we can have a sensible discussion here about Shamima Begum?

[StephenBelafonte]

I just don't understand the hostility towards her by the british government. Surely as a 15 year old she was radicalised and brainwashed.

I genuinely don't understand why the government is so harsh towards her. Unless they know something we don't. I feel so sorry for her.

Why should a country in total chaos deal with someone who was radicalised in the UK?

Because ISIS created that chaos and she was part of it and as such should be prosecuted there.

@SimonJT

I don't understand your comparison between a child being groomed/coerced to work as a sex worker and a child being groomed to be a terrorist.

1. sex worker - she is likely to be doing it out of fear for her safety. She is likely to not enjoy it. She is likely to want to not do it. The "crime" is unto herself, not harmful to others.

2. terrorist - she has terrorised and likely killed innocent people. In horrific ways with no regard for humanity and the others feelings. She has witnessed and been complicit what most people would deem as sickening and repulsive. This wasn't enough for her to feel remorse. She has grown into an adult and still doesn't regret her actions. She doesn't want out of it.

These are two VERY different scenarios. Just because the same word "groomed" is used, doesnt mean you can equate the two.

I don't understand your comparison between a child being groomed/coerced to work as a sex worker and a child being groomed to be a terrorist

The process of a child being groomed into being criminally or sexually exploited and a child being radicalised is very, very similar.

The police departments and other agency who deal with both areas work in similar ways to try and prevent, identify and work with victims.

Most people don't run away with the intention of joining a sex workers group. And sex workers don't murder people. The two are not similar at all. Anyway her appeal got turned down. So has she anywhere else to appeal to. At least we are out of the EU so she can't go to them.

@SmileEachDay

I don't understand your comparison between a child being groomed/coerced to work as a sex worker and a child being groomed to be a terrorist

The process of a child being groomed into being criminally or sexually exploited and a child being radicalised is very, very similar.

The police departments and other agency who deal with both areas work in similar ways to try and prevent, identify and work with victims.

I don't believe it.

The child who is groomed into becoming a sex worker is not becoming a sex worker to perpetuate the notion that sex working is a good thing. They are not actively seeking that lifestyle. They are unlikely to be aware that's where they're headed. They are usually doing it for access to drugs, money, food, security initially. They are wanting to survive and fall into the wrong crowd. It escalates and they are usually left in a position they don't want to be in.

SB was seeking an ideology and accepted one that was known to commit mass attrocities. She knew at the very beginning what it entailed and actively signed up to it. Not from a position of vulnerability, after all, she had a family, friends, education etc. She had the option to stay safe. She sought out a barbaric community with full awareness of what she was joining.

It's not the same.

The process may be (although I doubt it) but the motivations and awareness are not the same. And the end results are radically different it terms of autonomy and options.

I think it’s a difficult one as she shows no remorse at all for her actions.

I think we treat young people who stab people or kidnap/murder kids better than we have done shamima. Realistically she should do a plea deal so she can go to prison for a reasonable time. We also have hateful people in U.K. who spew all kinds of horrible stuff. I do agree that she should wait her turn and would probably give refugees/asylum seekers priority over her.

However - it would be good for there to be an enquiry about whether the govt did all they could to bring her child back to U.K. for medical treatment.

Can’t understand the mentality of some on here actually comparing a groomed underage girl being passed round a group of men for sex, and someone who actually chose to leave her family and country to go and join a terrorist group with the intention to kill and torture people. Absolutely no comparison whatsoever, and those who are claiming there is are beyond stupid.

I don't believe it

You can not believe it as much as you like but every agency in the country involved in working with children who are at risk of being radicalised or at risk of CSE or criminal exploitation would disagree.

Not read all the thread but there was a programme on Radio 4 about ISIS brides called "Guest House for Young Widows", very enlightening.

SB proudly supports this regime

Yes. That’s exactly what being radicalised means.

The definition of “radicalisation” as used officially in the UK, by the Prevent scheme, for example or in legal contexts, has already widened massively to include extreme right wing offenders.

It could be widened still further. We know for example that UK authorities started classifying environmental protestors as extremists and terrorists, and keeping files on them.

There is a very real practical problem in saying that “extremism = radicalisation = not responsible for your decisions”.

those who are claiming there is are beyond stupid

Or they might just know more than you. 🤷🏻‍♀️

It's also very easy to discuss this on a theoretical, academic level.

But if it was your family, friend, colleague who was beheaded, I suspect people would feel differently.

These are real people/families she has contributed to murdering. People with dependents, careers, hobbies and loved ones. She showed zero compassion and humanity to them.

What she has done is barbaric. And quite frankly, she doesn't deserve a second chance. Nor does she deserve access to other prisoners to convert.

@SmileEachDay

I don't believe it

You can not believe it as much as you like but every agency in the country involved in working with children who are at risk of being radicalised or at risk of CSE or criminal exploitation would disagree.

And you think they're doing a good job? Just because that's their practice doesn't mean it's effective. Or right.

As I explained, the two scenarios are completely different. In every way. To maintain that the approach to supporting both types of people should be the same is ludicrous and probably highly ineffective.

Nor does she deserve access to other prisoners to convert

What you mean is “she doesn’t deserve access to other English prisoners to convert”

You’d rather she stayed in Syria.

She may well have been brainwashed but she held views that were abhorrent. Her family had no control over her leaving and did not know. If she was to move back in with them would they have any idea what she was up to? Would she need a new identity as I imagine her going home to her family could well lead to racist attacks on them. What about the money that would be spent on setting that up for her when she fundamentally disagreed with everything this country stands for?

What deterrents are there for people like her if you let her back into the country? I am glad her nationality had been revoked. She is being used as an example but has no one to blame for it but herself. I say that as a Muslim women.

And you think they're doing a good job?
I’ve been involved in some amazing practice. Not always - agencies in the UK are far from perfect. But I think some of the approaches taken can be transformational.

@Mintychocolate

She willingly went off because it gave her power and status. Here she was just one of a million schoolgirls, there she was the wife of a feted isis fighter. She liked it. It was fun... until it wasn't. She got to hang out with the other wives, and wave guns around and bully other women for not being Islamic enough. She wanted power and status. I don't even think she's terribly religious.

This.

@SmileEachDay

Nor does she deserve access to other prisoners to convert

What you mean is “she doesn’t deserve access to other English prisoners to convert”

You’d rather she stayed in Syria.

Yes, I'd rather she stay there.

Syria has a much bigger problem on their hands with terrorism. The UK Gov has given £249million to Syria to help with the effects of the conflict.

SB is a drop in the ocean in Syria.

I don't think she deserves the protection and relative luxury she would receive in a UK prison. I think the damage she can do is greater here.

I don't think the UK criminal justice system is punitive enough for people like her. Her views and actions are horrendous, the worst of the worst.

@Livelovebehappy

Can’t understand the mentality of some on here actually comparing a groomed underage girl being passed round a group of men for sex, and someone who actually chose to leave her family and country to go and join a terrorist group with the intention to kill and torture people. Absolutely no comparison whatsoever, and those who are claiming there is are beyond stupid.

Also this.

She was groomed. She was a child.

@SmileEachDay

And you think they're doing a good job? I’ve been involved in some amazing practice. Not always - agencies in the UK are far from perfect. But I think some of the approaches taken can be transformational.

Maybe. There have also been examples of extremely poor practices in protecting women especially in the UK.

Weve seen vulnerable young people slip through the net before and it's still happening. On a wide-scale.

If it's true what you say, that the same techniques are used to identify those vulnerable to sexual grooming and those vulnerable to extremist grooming... Then I think that's ridiculous and no wonder so many young people are failed. It's a flawed and simplistic view on what are two very different situations, requiring very different approaches. If they are to be effective anyway.

Yes, I'd rather she stay there
Syria has a much bigger problem on their hands with terrorism. The UK Gov has given £249million to Syria to help with the effects of the conflict

SB is a drop in the ocean in Syria

I don't think she deserves the protection and relative luxury she would receive in a UK prison. I think the damage she can do is greater here

Got it.

That’s a really shitty attitude.

Of more than 900 people who travelled to Syria and Iraq from the UK, an estimated half have returned but only about 40 were successfully prosecuted.

That statement says all! She cannot return as that would create the precedent for others and would cause security risk of Britain.

@SmileEachDay

Yes, I'd rather she stay there Syria has a much bigger problem on their hands with terrorism. The UK Gov has given £249million to Syria to help with the effects of the conflict

SB is a drop in the ocean in Syria

I don't think she deserves the protection and relative luxury she would receive in a UK prison. I think the damage she can do is greater here

Got it.

That’s a really shitty attitude.

It's a real attitude. To real crimes. Against real people.

You are approaching this in a theoretical manner. You give no reasoning for thinking she's better off here. All you've done is defend a failing system.

Please give some insight into why you think it's better she come back to the UK.