To think it's normal to discuss an unborn baby's skin colour?

[JustWonderingIfYou]

In the exact same way you discuss their hair colour, facial features, height in relation to their parent's features.

I am "BAME", as is my partner- both mixed. So my baby is a super mix of at least 5 ethnicities- yes he is gorgeous . Whilst pregnant everyone spoke about what colour he would be, I thought this was normal.

It went from people joking about whether he'd need factor 50 like one grandparent to hoping he'd be dark enough to dance in carnival. Even jokes hoping he'd escape the "asian glow".

It stopped once he was born as it was, i hope, just curiosity as to how he would look. Although one particular family member celebrated every time she saw him that he was darker each time.

Is this not the case in other families? Wondering especially about other mixed BAME families.

-This is not directly related to MM but all the chatter has brought up whether I should have tried to stop these conversations or been offended by them.

I too think it's a totally normal conversation to have.

@AlexaShutUp

I have a mixed race dd. I don't think we ever discussed what she would look like before she was born - not skin colour, not eye colour, not hair colour, not height etc. It just wasn't an issue that came up.

My DD is mixed race, and same. The only people who ever speculated was one female colleague who, upon finding out my DH was black, said ‘ooh her colouring will be nice, THEY are always so good looking aren’t THEY’. I complained about her.

Harry did say in the interview he was clearly bought up in a secluded nature and having met Megan had his eyes opened to racism. So yes he did do or say racist things in the past but its clear he has learnt from it, which is always the better outcome.

I remember a decade or so ago in the Indian community the older generation would make comments on how dark or fair the baby's skin in and it was not in a nice way. It was meant negatively because have fairer skin was better.

Those comments are no longer ever made, haven't heard anyone eveb the older generation say it anymore because its wrong.

So if someone spoke to me about the colour of my babys skin say how fair or dark they are, I would be deeply offended.

@oblada

JayDot500 - I'm sorry that your experience has been like this. But someone from an ethnic minority (black/asian, in the UK for instance) choosing a white partner doesn't necessarily want their kids to look more like their partner. I personally have never experienced that at any rate. And the speculation is, mostly, innocent. I did wonder what skin tone my children would have but in the same way I wondered whether they would have my eyes (I quite like my eyes :)). Obviously I probably kinda wanted them to have a dark skin tone somehow because my DH is dark (Asian) and I quite like the idea of them being a mix in physical traits. But realistically I didn't care that much and I love my white blond boy the same I love my youngest daughter who quite clearly has her dad's skin tone. Unfortunately the reality is I cannot relate to your experience - as I am white - and I don't claim to be able to. But that doesn't make my speculation re my children's skin anything other than innocent.

No, it doesn't necessarily mean they ALL want their kids to look like their white partners, but it's more common for them to want that than you might believe. My brother, three cousins, too many male friends... They have expressed colourist views towards black women. Unsurprisingly, they don't date black women. They especially don't want their children (especially their daughters) to look unambiguously black.. So listening to their partners speculating about their biracial kids is just messy. I've argued enough with these types of men. In one case, a friend of mine thoroughly expressed his distaste for black women (our attitude, hair, unattractive qualities etc) and his biracial daughter is darker than me. It makes me feel sad. Will he eat his words or hold the same views towards his daughter? Who knows, I'm obviously not his friend anymore. The mum likely has no idea how he feels about women that look like their daughter. Same goes with my brother. His girlfriend is lovely, but likely has no idea how he feels about black women.

My children are mixed race and we were interested to see what they’d look like, so yes, it was discussed before they were born. It wasn’t racist.

JayDot - that's very sad and those men are definitely a waste of space but not all are like this. DH is married to a white woman (obv), a few of his cousins are too and none of them are the least bit concerned about the colour of their children's skin. My cousin (black - adopted) is married to a white woman and similarly has no issue with any skin tone. They have girls. So it really depends. In your case I understand the concerns but really it can also be v innocent.

I have to say I also wondered what skin tone Archie would have. As in would the ginger genes or the darker genes be more obvious. I have little doubt the royal in question (not the whole royal family as MM was spinning it) was wondering the same.
To brand an entire family as racist based on the comments of one person (which themselves may well have been purely out of curiosity rather than inherently racist) is as irrational as blaming an entire police force for the actions of one individual officer.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

I don't know. If I were biracial and my husband had some dubious issues in his past, doubtless the result if his learned experience, if his granny had been pictured learning how to do a Nazi salute, if my in-laws were a family who wore racist brooches, asked Aboriginal businessmen if they still chucked spears at each other, or made references to 'slitty' eyes, I think I might have some concerns if they commented on my unborn/future children's skin tone, too.

This !!!!!

It was normal for you because it was discussed and joked about, with you included? MM heard it second-hand - it was being discussed behind her back, as the only person of colour in the family. She wasn't included in the discussion. How must that have felt. I imagine I would have felt serious anxiety if that was me in that situation.

And to use the word concern is quite realistic in my opinion - this isn't a normal, average family. Everything they do has consequences in relation to titles, hierarchy, wealth, public image etc - and historically they have always been white and racist. I'm sure they weren't being light-hearted about it, but concerned.

It would be fine in an open loving close family. But for the white side of the family to 'express concern' about how dark a baby will be in a situation where the relationship isn't close and the where the implication is that dark skin would not be as desirable as white skin is not acceptable.

No. I don't think it is normal. My (white) British brother married a (black) Brazilian woman. No-one in our family had this conversation when she was pregnant.

It of course completely depends on the context. One of my very good friends is black, her husband white. We mused over the skin colour of her little boys. Especially as her first is slightly darker and her second is lighter. It opened up a whole conversation on how interesting genetics are. It wasn't a racist conversation at all and I would say it was very similar to when people discussed if my son would have my blue eyes or husband's brown eyes.

But in the Meghan / Harry / Archie context.. the word "concern" was used. This indicates a negative association with how "dark his skin will be". And that's what's not ok

This was the case with my babies and my sisters children. We discussed how dark or light they might be. If they would be lighter or darker than us. Makes me feel abnormal people saying how anyone that does that is racist.

@FireflyRainbow

This was the case with my babies and my sisters children. We discussed how dark or light they might be. If they would be lighter or darker than us. Makes me feel abnormal people saying how anyone that does that is racist.

Thats because you were involved in the conversation as opposed to a conversation happening elsewhere without being involved in it

Most of these comments are coming from people who are white. I am more interested in parents who are black, do they discuss it if they have a white partner? I doubt it

I think it depends on context, DH and I are both white, so have never experienced discrimination or comments in relation to skin colour, he stands very easily and has olivey skin and I am very pale and a bit ginger, people commented and made guesses etc, I even said I hoped he'd have DHs skin tone as I don't do brilliantly in the heat/sun, and there was no issue. However if I'd faced discrimination due to my skin colour I'd probably have felt very differently.

OP I asked the same question last week and my thread was removed with no explanation.

The fetishisation of brown / mixed race skin has been around for many years.

Having a mixed race child doesn’t necessarily make white people an expert on what isn’t racism.

@Cassilis

The fetishisation of brown / mixed race skin has been around for many years.

Having a mixed race child doesn’t necessarily make white people an expert on what isn’t racism.

This, in spades.

Liking a mixed race child's appearance isn't racist. It's quite common.
Yes I'm not an expert in racism but I don't think there is any requirement to be an 'expert' to have a view on racism and on whether my views/actions are indeed racist i.e. whether I put race at the heart of everything (thats the etymology of racism) such as judging others based on their race etc.
Others can have a different view and feel offended and if so the right reaction is to listen to each other and adjust accordingly but someone feeling offended doesn't make the other person racist, it's a bit more complex than that (and indeed I'm not suggesting that someone thinking they aren't racist is necessarily right either, it has to be looked at in broader way/context).

Sorry saying it's common isn't a reason why it wouldn't be racist. It's just a fact though probably quite irrelevant :)

WRT the MM thing: the word concerned was used by her, we don’t know actually that that’s what the person who asked that question said. Since they weren’t named, they can’t clarify either.. it could have been said innocently, or not but tbh unless they are named , we definitely won’t know.

I have no dog in this fight. I think it's natural for some to talk about babies with interest on how the genes would play out and who might take after whom.

If I understand it correctly the baby skin colour was a comment from someone in the rather large RF to Harry, who then reported the comment to his wife. Whether it was nastily or innocently made I'm surprised he didn't bring it up with the RF and get it questioned at the time. He made sure Oprah clarified it was neither the Queen nor Prince Philip but that means a huge part of the RF is now under suspicion.

Nor did he apparently get the help for his wife when she felt suicidal in pregnancy. Given his mother's history and the royal charity for mental health that seems a monumental fail. She should have been excused royal duties at least as her SIL was when suffering extreme morning sickness.

@Kisskiss

WRT the MM thing: the word concerned was used by her, we don’t know actually that that’s what the person who asked that question said. Since they weren’t named, they can’t clarify either.. it could have been said innocently, or not but tbh unless they are named , we definitely won’t know.

But Harry said he was 'shocked' and felt 'awkward'. A nice chit chat about what baby will look like doesn't usually have that effect.

@crosstalk

I have no dog in this fight. I think it's natural for some to talk about babies with interest on how the genes would play out and who might take after whom.

If I understand it correctly the baby skin colour was a comment from someone in the rather large RF to Harry, who then reported the comment to his wife. Whether it was nastily or innocently made I'm surprised he didn't bring it up with the RF and get it questioned at the time. He made sure Oprah clarified it was neither the Queen nor Prince Philip but that means a huge part of the RF is now under suspicion.

Nor did he apparently get the help for his wife when she felt suicidal in pregnancy. Given his mother's history and the royal charity for mental health that seems a monumental fail. She should have been excused royal duties at least as her SIL was when suffering extreme morning sickness.

Harry does come out of this sounding about as useful as an old dishrag doesn’t he?

Not only did he not deal with the skin colour comments appropriately at the time, he then passed them on to MM unresolved.

Not only did he not get her help when she said she was suicidal, he had failed to brief her properly in the role originally (probably because having had proposals of marriage turned down by previous girlfriends, he didn’t actually want her fully briefed, in case she also said no).

Complete car crash.