To be angry at the frenzy caused by others last night

[BarometerTV]

I think it was utterly disrespectful. We are in lockdown and it was not the right time for a protest. I agree with a quiet, respectful, socially distanced space to grieve - which is what appeared to happen during the day.

The point might be made that Shipman meant the law had to be changed to stop abuse by doctors. It was the lack of challenge and effective deference that allowed him to act as he did.

This is about police accountability.

Exactly.

We need to get away from the "one bad apple" mentality. There's plenty of evidence of systemic problems within the Met Police, and a culture that allows brutality and other problems like systemic racism to grow.

@LexMitior

The point might be made that Shipman meant the law had to be changed to stop abuse by doctors. It was the lack of challenge and effective deference that allowed him to act as he did.

This is about police accountability.

This is so well put. Exactly this.

Absolutely there has to be accountability but it also doesn’t mean I take against an entire sector in the meantime.

I also think there are clear differences in what people perceive as ‘brutality’ or provocation and the level of response they feel is appropriate.

@Dorsetdays

Absolutely there has to be accountability but it also doesn’t mean I take against an entire sector in the meantime.

I also think there are clear differences in what people perceive as ‘brutality’ or provocation and the level of response they feel is appropriate.

Agree entirely, again.

I don't agree that any level of brutality or violence is ever acceptable, unless it's in self-defence, or in the defence of others.

I simply don't believe that anyone could possibly defend police refusing to arrest violent male anti-mask protestors, but singling out women sitting on the ground for arrest, unless they have an agenda.

I was sickened by the images of police officers manhandling women at the vigil, especially when one of their own has been charged with Sarah's kidnap and murder. That these heavy-handed and insensitive tactics are being defended by Cressida Dick shows there are problems in the Met right at the top. The meme sent from the crime scene and the selfies with the bodies of Nicole and Bibaa shine a light on deep misogyny within some in the ranks. Cressida Dick has been in the Met a long time and rose through those ranks. One can only assume that has influenced her thinking, and not in a good way.

@MrsMackesy misogyny needs to be combatted - definitely. Is the way forward to assume that - the stereotype of male misogyny in the police force is the ‘norm’ and risk alienating/downgrading/devaluing the majority of police officers/making their job even more challenging. Or to address that there are pockets in the police force that behave like this - hopefully the minority - and combat this when it arises. Do we work against the police/or together with the police??

[quote FerrisWheelTrain]@MrsMackesy misogyny needs to be combatted - definitely. Is the way forward to assume that - the stereotype of male misogyny in the police force is the ‘norm’ and risk alienating/downgrading/devaluing the majority of police officers/making their job even more challenging. Or to address that there are pockets in the police force that behave like this - hopefully the minority - and combat this when it arises. Do we work against the police/or together with the police??[/quote]

Spot on.

We need to be working with them IMO and supporting the good ones to keep doing the right thing.

The alleged actions of one police officer doesn’t mean I don’t trust “the police”. That’s as ridiculous as saying I refuse to go to my GP because of Harold Shipman.

It's not one police officer though is it?

You were hundreds of miles away.

Women who were there said it did.

How could you possibly know whether it did or did not happen, when you were not there? It's very strange to confidently state that women are lying about their own personal experience, over an event you didn't see or have any involvement in at all.

I'm not saying they're lying as such. What I think has happened is that they have led sheltered middle class lifes and not had much contact with the police. Not been to a protest before. Think they are above being handcuffed and arrested, but they need to understand that no one is above the law

They were asked to move on. Half an hour later they still had not moved on and were encouraging others to do the same by chanting. Enciting others to break law. Encouraging the volatile situation to get even more out of hand. So they were arrested. Tell me, how do you think the police are supposed to arrest people in these protest situations. Should they politely say "excuse me but you please come with me " which is probably what they'd already been saying, and if the protester refuses, clings onto the bandstand railings, incites others to break the law and scream abuse. Did they think the police would just say "ok madam, have a nice evening" and leave it?

They were asked to move on. Half an hour later they still had not moved on and were encouraging others to do the same by chanting. Enciting others to break law. Encouraging the volatile situation to get even more out of hand. So they were arrested. Tell me, how do you think the police are supposed to arrest people in these protest situations. Should they politely say "excuse me but you please come with me " which is probably what they'd already been saying, and if the protester refuses, clings onto the bandstand railings, incites others to break the law and scream abuse. Did they think the police would just say "ok madam, have a nice evening" and leave it?

I wondered this, too.
After repeatedly asking people to move on and being ignored, what exactly is their next move supposed to be?

@BonnieDundee

The alleged actions of one police officer doesn’t mean I don’t trust “the police”. That’s as ridiculous as saying I refuse to go to my GP because of Harold Shipman.

It's not one police officer though is it?

Don't you think it is positive that the other officers who received the inappropriate meme from the probationer reported him? Maybe it is more than one but it isn't all of them by any means.

@ancientgran

There's a thread running about this at the moment and I'm being torn to shreds for suggesting it's not the fault of the officers who received this message and it's in fact a positive thing that it was reported, therefore it's evidence against the misogyny if anything as otherwise why would they bother reporting it? However, I'm fully in the minority on that thread!

Flax you're all over the place.

What I think has happened is that they have led sheltered middle class lifes and not had much contact with the police.
Plenty of the women were working class. There were literally two homeless women there who were interviewed on TV. Stop repeating this weird lie that it was all poshos just because you're fixated with hating anyone middle class.

Not been to a protest before.
Two days ago you were suggesting they were wasted and had gone out wanting to get into a punch up with police (a typical middle class yummy mummy activity, right?), yesterday you were accusing them of being professional agitators, now you're saying they'd never been to a protest before? Why can't you keep your story straight?

Think they are above being handcuffed and arrested, but they need to understand that no one is above the law
Some of the women who were injured were not arrested or handcuffed. And why are you ignoring the fact that registered and well-labelled Independent Observers appointed by the Office of the Police and Crime Commissioner were harassed and threatened with arrest, and that subsequently some IOs were actually arrested?

They were asked to move on. Half an hour later they still had not moved on.

That's a flat out lie. Police encouraged women to go onto the bandstand then kettled them inside, not allowing them to leave. It was extremely dangerous to leave, if not physically impossible. The women were arrested perhaps two minutes after "refusing" to leave, not half an hour. I have no idea where you've gotten that 30 minute figure from, pulled it out your arse obviously.

were encouraging others to do the same by chanting.
Neither the women who were arrested, or the women who were injured who were not arrested, were engaged in chanting. The police flatly ignored the people leading the chants.

scream abuse.
Lies lies lies lies lie.

Did they think the police would just say "ok madam, have a nice evening" and leave it?
They could have arrested the protestors who were being violent, who were being aggressive, who were leading the anti-police chants? You do realise that almost all the protestors were in the crowd, not on the bandstand, right? The bandstand was were the PRESS were. Of all the people on the bandstand, it was probably 50% press, 49% police, 1% protestors. Whatever image you've created of a gang of crazed protestors taking over the bandstand screaming and leading the chants is pure fanfiction.

Don't you think it is positive that the other officers who received the inappropriate meme from the probationer reported him? Maybe it is more than one but it isn't all of them by any means.

Yes I do think thats good. However "isnt all of them" is a very low bar. There is obviously a problem in the police and unless it is tackled it wont go away.

There was a disabled woman who'd been accidentally trapped on the bandstand, a middle aged woman with a walking stick, crying and literally begging the police to help her get off the bandstand because she was afraid she'd be crushed. The police roughly grabbed her and tried to shove her down the slope causing her to fall and be injured, then screamed at her when she fell. Three men from the press and one female photographer formed a wall around her and helped get her down past the 'human wall' of police who were blocking the two exits and preventing anyone from getting on or off the bandstand.

May I ask - with teachers, some commit some truly abhorrent abuses of trust with the pupils that they teach. Why do we not protest against teachers? Why do we not feel that child abuse is possibly endemic in the teaching profession. I would say - on a monthly basis - we hear of a teacher who has abused the trust of a pupil?

The alleged actions of one police officer doesn’t mean I don’t trust “the police”. That’s as ridiculous as saying I refuse to go to my GP because of Harold Shipman

Yet many people who use this board are happy to tar social housing tenants with the same brush.

@MercyBooth

The alleged actions of one police officer doesn’t mean I don’t trust “the police”. That’s as ridiculous as saying I refuse to go to my GP because of Harold Shipman

Yet many people who use this board are happy to tar social housing tenants with the same brush.

I would never personally tar any group of people with the same brush. I believe in everyone being an individual with the right to be treated as such. I believe there's good and bad in all groups and categories of people - men, women, police officers, social housing tenants... whoever. I believe people should be judged on the behaviour they display, not the social or professional category to which they belong.

[quote LucieStar]@ancientgran

There's a thread running about this at the moment and I'm being torn to shreds for suggesting it's not the fault of the officers who received this message and it's in fact a positive thing that it was reported, therefore it's evidence against the misogyny if anything as otherwise why would they bother reporting it? However, I'm fully in the minority on that thread! [/quote]
I don't think this is an accurate representation of the other thread or your part in it and is a post about another thread. You have posted countless times on that thread, very strongly in defence of the police and your police officer partner.

Its all because @Flaxmeadow thinks they should have all stayed at home because......Covid. Thats the truth of it. Her posts on the Covid board show that that trumps all else.............including how the working class are affected by these lockdowns.
So i find it strange to see the concern wheeled out now.

I think that stereotypes exist - and they often are founded in some basis of truth. Stereotypes allow you to make quick assumptions In a flight of fight situation. However, as society progresses - we challenge these stereotypes as it’s wrong to assume that certain groups of people always behave in a particular way. My concern here is that the female stereotype of weak, meek, defenceless is being pitted against a male stereotype of dominant, overpowering, violent. This is counter productive? Surely?

@MrsMackesy

I think it's actually an entirely accurate representation and people can decide for themselves

@FerrisWheelTrain But you cant have it both ways You cant deny biology like that and then say Oh but what about biology when it comes to trans issues.