To be angry at the frenzy caused by others last night

[BarometerTV]

I think it was utterly disrespectful. We are in lockdown and it was not the right time for a protest. I agree with a quiet, respectful, socially distanced space to grieve - which is what appeared to happen during the day.

Can I just say - and I’m sure everyone has had a similar experience - I was assaulted from behind as I walked home one night. I was grabbed, completely out of the blue. I screamed NO at him, he backed off - and I ran. The police were wonderful the next day - just sensitive, kind - went through everything with me. Sarah’s family said how grateful they were to the police during the investigation. I truly think the vast majority of officers doing a fantastic job under very difficult circumstances. We must not forget the good they do. Of course, lessons need to be learnt from what’s happened. I personally think there needed to be more clarity and guidelines prior to the protest. I’m concerned that the public will lose faith in the police because of the actions of a minority. We need them to keep our streets safe.

That was me. If you believe that some police officers don’t try and goad people at protests and on marches you’re deluded.

We've already had this conversation.

I've felt provoked/ goaded on many occasions (not by police I might add). I can make a choice to assault that person, or I can take responsibility for my actions and not attack them. I choose the latter.

If you assaulted someone every time you felt provoked... can you imagine the state of the world.

I don’t get the impression that there are many obedient, passive, quiet woman on this thread - and I’m sure it was the same on Sat night.

That's the point though - plenty of posters have pulled out the "obedient passive women" trope in order to delineate the women who attended the vigil into Good Girls (do not deserve brutality) vs Bad Girls (who were asking for it).

The poster who kept saying her niece simply went to lay and candle and left immediately, or the posters saying the crowd was divided into two groups, women who wanted to honour Sarah (who lit a candle and left immediately) and those who had placards, or shouted, or didn't immediately run home once the chanting shouted. Several posters have stated or implied that any woman who was still there after about 6.15ish was there with an agenda and therefore fall into the Bad category.

It's a damaging false binary and it's simply not appropriate to police women's behaviour to this degree. Why are the limits on acceptable female - and only female - behaviour so narrow?

Like I said upthread: what about women who went with every intention of quietly lighting a candle then leaving immediately, but paused to listen to the poetry and got upset at witnessing police dragging the speaker off, and joined in the protest and the chanting due to having a spur of the moment human reaction to witnessing excessive police action to stop what was at that point still a peaceful vigil?

What about women who care passionately about male violence, who stayed on the outside joining in the chants, and left when the violence started?

What about women who went to honour Sarah, who simply lit a candle and left, but who also chose to wear a t-shirt with "stop male violence" in recognition of the fact Sarah died because of male violence?

Oh and before anyone else wants to rip my partner to pieces just for his profession, I'd like to point out that he doesn't work for the Met Police, who everyone seems to hate.

@FerrisWheelTrain

Can I just say - and I’m sure everyone has had a similar experience - I was assaulted from behind as I walked home one night. I was grabbed, completely out of the blue. I screamed NO at him, he backed off - and I ran. The police were wonderful the next day - just sensitive, kind - went through everything with me. Sarah’s family said how grateful they were to the police during the investigation. I truly think the vast majority of officers doing a fantastic job under very difficult circumstances. We must not forget the good they do. Of course, lessons need to be learnt from what’s happened. I personally think there needed to be more clarity and guidelines prior to the protest. I’m concerned that the public will lose faith in the police because of the actions of a minority. We need them to keep our streets safe.

I too have (thankfully only a handful of times) needed the police at times. They have been bloody amazing with me too (and my teen daughter).

@FerrisWheelTrain I should imagine decent officers get very pissed off and angry with the shit ones.

There was an ex officer on Newsnight last night who came across very well.

We've already had this conversation

Indeed. So why did you bring it up again? Your argument seems to be that the police can do what the fuck they like and the good little girls they provoke and goad should just turn the other cheek.

[quote MercyBooth]@FerrisWheelTrain I should imagine decent officers get very pissed off and angry with the shit ones.

There was an ex officer on Newsnight last night who came across very well.[/quote]

They get pissed off with the shit ones, yes. They also get pissed off with being tarred with the same brush as the shit ones every time they go out in uniform.

@Alsohuman

We've already had this conversation

Indeed. So why did you bring it up again? Your argument seems to be that the police can do what the fuck they like and the good little girls they provoke and goad should just turn the other cheek.

Because I was asked by another poster (read back) what had given me the impression some people condone violence towards the police.

And if that's the message you've taken from my posts then you need to re read them.

@LucieStar I won’t be ripping your partner to pieces, I bet he is amazing. I do think - as a civilised society - we tend eventually learn from things and move forwards - I hope. I want the streets to be a safer place for my (very opinionated, strong, intelligent, loud) daughter.

And will you revise your opinion if it comes to light that this suspect as a police officer had previously displayed inappropriate behaviour to women and it was not dealt with?

Point taken. I did pick up that he had been reported for flashing two days before Sarah was murdered and nothing had been done. So that is a question that needs answering. (Although, unless he had been locked up, which is unlikely, he could still have committed that appalling crime.)

I was admittedly really only thinking about the murder investigation, not what had happened before.

Because I was asked by another poster (read back) what had given me the impression some people condone violence towards the police

And if that's the message you've taken from my posts then you need to re read them

If you think I condone violence towards the police you need to reread my posts. I offered that story to evidence the police provocation that you maintain should be politely ignored.

[quote FerrisWheelTrain]@LucieStar I won’t be ripping your partner to pieces, I bet he is amazing. I do think - as a civilised society - we tend eventually learn from things and move forwards - I hope. I want the streets to be a safer place for my (very opinionated, strong, intelligent, loud) daughter.[/quote]

As do I, for my daughter too.

I'll repeat what I said earlier:

"I honestly believe there were a real mix of there people on the day.

Group 1) the genuine grief stricken and shocked people, who just wanted to lay a candle and pay their respects to poor Sarah and her family. Group 2) people who were angry and wanting to protest against male violence against women more broadly and make a political statement about this (totally understandable of course, albeit a little poorly timed when the vigil had barely finished).
Then Group 3) the ones who had lost all perspective frankly, having condemned the suspect already before he's even been trialled, and due to his link with the Met police projected all that anger (unfairly) at his colleagues in the form of assaults and chants of "all police are scum" etc.

I understand and have sympathy with groups 1 & 2. Group 3 - no chance. They were out of order completely."

Note that I make no reference to "women" - I refer to groups of people with different agendas as I don't have any agenda in terms of wanting to "silence women" (clearly, because I am one for a start!).

Secondly, note that I sympathise with groups 1 & 2. I cannot though, ever sympathise with people with a blanket anti police agenda. I just can't. I won't apologise for that.

I understand where you're coming from but I just don't think it's as simple as that, to divide people into different groups so neatly.

I know there were women in attendance who've never been to a protest before, had no idea Sisters Uncut were planning anything, just wanted to light a candle and thought only a few other locals would be there, who wound up shouting anti-police sentiments because they got caught up in the moment and had a human emotional response to witnessing police brutality.

Obviously the people with placards are a different story, but it's wrong to assume that everyone who joined in the chanting had started out with an agenda to co-opt the vigil for their own anti-police stance.

@LucieStar absolutely. I can’t understand how anyone could disagree with that. To me, you speak as a true feminist.

@rosetylersbiggun

I understand where you're coming from but I just don't think it's as simple as that, to divide people into different groups so neatly.

I know there were women in attendance who've never been to a protest before, had no idea Sisters Uncut were planning anything, just wanted to light a candle and thought only a few other locals would be there, who wound up shouting anti-police sentiments because they got caught up in the moment and had a human emotional response to witnessing police brutality.

Obviously the people with placards are a different story, but it's wrong to assume that everyone who joined in the chanting had started out with an agenda to co-opt the vigil for their own anti-police stance.

Perhaps, yes - point taken. My groups may be a little simplified. But I still won't ever condone Group 3 (the ones who attended with a pre determined anti police agenda).

I feel passionately about violence, against anyone - women, men, children. Whoever. It's wrong. Thats why I work in offender rehabilitation.

So I can wholly sympathise with the passion and sentiments of Group 2. But my views on violence equally mean I can't condone Group 3's behaviour. I'm not sure if that makes any sense.

Anyway, less violence and hostility on the streets of all types. That's what I'm trying to say. That's what I advocate for.

The ex officer on Newsnight was John Sutherland

twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1371798558731595776?s=20

@Mittens030869

**DoughtyStreet Chambers Barrister *@HarrietEJohnson* says she has seen rape victims “blamed, belittled, ridiculed and ignored by officers who are supposed to be supporting them”**

This is really shocking. My DSis and I had a completely different experience when we reported our historical SA. There was no prosecution, but that was because the CPS decided that there wasn’t a ‘realistic prospect of conviction’. The police were thoroughly supportive right through. (That was the Sapphire unit of the Met Police, though, a dedicated sexual offences unit.)

I worked in police admin for a number of years. I only ever saw that sort of attitude from 1 or 2 very inexperienced officers. I remember a rape case where 2 prostitutes had been raped. A DCI overheard a younger officers making some stupid remarks about not believing them because they had no injuries. Let's just say it wasn't a pleasant experience for him and I doubt he ever said anything like that again.

I'm glad the police were professional, it must have been very difficult for you.

@rippledegg

Does everyone badmouthing the police and disseminating the erroneous idea that they instigate violence realise that if the police are defunded there will be more women murdered, not less?

It's not erroneous to suggest that the police instigate violence, it really isn't. There have been many examples over decades of that happening, not just in a public protest arena either. Some of those examples have resulted in the death of members of the public

How about my XH who turned out to be a violent thug of a police officer and ended up in prison for trying to murder DC and me. Or the Met Officer who make it clear he would have raped me if he hadn't been 'too tired'. I've more examples if you want them.

@LucieStar

Oh and before anyone else wants to rip my partner to pieces just for his profession, I'd like to point out that he doesn't work for the Met Police, who everyone seems to hate.

Don't know if it has changed but in my day other forces all hated them as well. Back then they were well known for corruption but I think that was stamped out, I hope so anyway.

Operation Countryman.

If you believe that some police officers don’t try and goad people at protests and on marches you’re deluded

I personally have never ever seen police trying goad people at protests (especially in the UK)

he doesn't work for the Met Police, who everyone seems to hate

No, most people are appreciative of the work they do to keep us all safe

@mbosnz

I don't think they have attempted to protect the suspect. What I mean is that some police tend to get very defensive when they are not regarded with complete respect and awe, and take it very personally. Not all police, but too many police - and I suspect a fair few of those were involved in 'policing' the vigil, given the line they took.

Some of them were probably fed up that their rest day was cancelled at the end of a year where they have had to do lots of extra hours to cover for sickness. They are probably sick of the risks they have to take, being spat at in a pandemic being one disgusting thing protesters do, I remember it from the miner's strike as well.

being spat at in a pandemic being one disgusting thing protesters do

This is horrific