To find snobbery around vocabulary very silly?

[crayolacom]

I too don't particularly like the idea of regional dialects and differences disappearing, but language does change and everyone should just deal with it!

I wonder if Shakespeare would be moaning about the modern lexicon if he was alive!

@NuniaBeeswax

I've gotten so annoyed with people saying that gotten is just an "Americanism" that I'm going to make it my business to use it in every post. Why has it not gotten through people's thick skulls that gotten is used regularly in many parts of the UK?

Because it involves mid-word t glottalisation to a greater or lesser extent, whereas in some native English accents, final "t" is never de-voiced. This is particularly noteable in the north of Scotland, Orkney, Shetland, etc. The "t" is always voiced - similar to Bjork's Icelandic pronunciation, or Norwegian.

So "gotten" would make more sense in some accents as a voiced fricative (gothen) not as a gottal stop, which is alien to them, but not as a double pronunciation of "t", which simply doesn't occur after the letter "o".

All this makes it easier for some dialect speakers to learn foreign languages. The understanding that the preceding vowel influences the subsequent voiced fricative is natural to some and unknown in others. Its an advantage worth retaining.

???

Forgot to say that many American speakers are actually saying "godden", or more likely "gadden", not "gotten" anyway...English, a bit like Danish, tends towards final devoicing anyway, rather than all that bother of inserting a glottal stop mid word, or trying to pronounce a double "t". Thats probably why "gotten" dropped out of use in English in the first place.

I'm not asking why they don't use it, I'm asking why they can't accept that it is still used. Or at least I think that's what you were explaining. :p

@NuniaBeeswax

I'm not asking why they don't use it, I'm asking why they can't accept that it is still used. Or at least I think that's what you were explaining. :p

I find it fascinating, because I come from a part of the UK that used to speak a now mostly extinct language (Norn) whose use was discouraged so much that its thought to have died out less than 200 years ago. But those language features are still apparent in the local dialect, which is very rich in completely non-English words. Its not a good thing to encourage dialect loss by encouraging what is now effectively, outside the dialects you mention, an American loanword.

@NuniaBeeswax

Oh well your "extensive travelling" clearly trumps people's experiences of having grown up and lived in places outside of the US where gotten is still used. I stand corrected.

Shame you couldn't find a spare five minutes in your 53 years of being alive to RTFT.

I’m sorry, I’ve obviously touched a nerve. I apologise.

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@gottenhaitch

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Brilliant!

One of the interesting aspects of mumsnet is that there are posters from all around the UK as well as elsewhere in the world, and I enjoy learning about different words for the same thing in other parts of the country and the rest of the world.

For example, until I joined mumsnet I had no idea that mom was used in parts of the UK for mum. I thought it was just an American term.

When I moved to Leeds I added new words to my vocabulary - snicket and ginnel, pack up, spice (alleyway x 2, packed lunch, sweets).

I hate people who say 'myself' instead of 'me' or 'l'. I think they do it to sound educated, but just come across as Muppets

See this is what I mean. It's not enough to just hate people who say something, they have to be saying it to sound educated, posh, pretentious, whatever. Ever thought they say it because they heard it somewhere and liked it or thought that's how it's said? How does 'myself' sound more educated than 'me' in that context and what makes you think they think so? It just tells me of the insecurity of the person making the accusation because apparently they think it does sound more educated and God forbid someone shows themselves to be "educated".

Ps. I don't use 'myself' in place of 'me' in such contexts and have always thought it odd when I hear it but these constant accusations of trying to be posh, etc is more often people's projection. You may need to ask yourself where that comes from.

Two that drive me mad. Should of and gotten. Even though gotten is supposed to be old English. It's naff.

Naff is pretty naff these days.

@MrsTophamHat

“Could have” is the “correct” way until it isn’t. In a hundred years’ time it may not be.

I don't believe this to be true. "Could of" is a misspelling of "could've"

If you take the "could" out of the sentence, "of" does not make sense. Only "have" makes sense

"You could of done the washing up."
"You of done the washing up"

Or

"You could have done the washing up"
"You have done the washing up."

Yes, and there are many examples of currently “correct” English which are illogical or inconsistent or exceptional because they’ve become “corrupted” over time.

English isn’t logical and there is no rule book.

@GreenlandTheMovie

Forgot to say that many American speakers are actually saying "godden", or more likely "gadden", not "gotten" anyway...English, a bit like Danish, tends towards final devoicing anyway, rather than all that bother of inserting a glottal stop mid word, or trying to pronounce a double "t". Thats probably why "gotten" dropped out of use in English in the first place.

That’s probably why no-one says words like rotten and bottom too.

MasterBeth That’s probably why no-one says words like rotten and bottom too.

I take it you mean reestit, harsk or ranklit, and backside, bum or bahookie? So that would be a no.

Sorry, it seemed to me that you were arguing than gotten had been lost from English (it hasn’t) because it was awkward to say (it isn’t).

Also, Americans don’t say godden or gadden. They say gotten in an American accent.

For me it's snobbery about if people read books or not. So not regional etc but getting things wrong like Pacific instead of specific.

But I forgot sat instead of sitting. That's so widespread most teachers teach it, newsreaders say it etc. I've binned a children's book before because of it.
It's not I was ran, it's I was running.
It's not I was sat, if was comes before it, it's sitting. Unless someone physically picked you up and sat you on something.
I know it's a losing battle.

Ive seen it debated on here before, and still not sure if it's "wrong" as such, but the use of "laying" and "laid" bothers me, and seems to be a recent thing.

I was just "laying there".

"He was just laid there"

Is this true? I am C of I and went to a private school (protestant) in Dublin and we all said haitch as well.

That's because you are Irish and in an Irish accent that is the correct pronunciation. It should be 'aitch' in England (and probably Scotland) but where you have a lot of Irish teachers, ie at RC schools in NI, parts of Scotland, Lancashire to a lesser extent haitch is used by the RC community and aitch by the protestant.

Interestingly in British Sign Language there are Scottish RC signs and Scottish Protestant signs.

I grew up in East Scotland, where we all said "haitch". It's different in different areas.

To those wailing "but it's spelt 'aitch'!" Were you actually shown or taught the word 'aitch', or just shown an 'H' and told what it was called, same as every other letter? We don't learn eff, ell, kew, arr etc., just a sound, thus regional variations are quite likely.

Ive seen it debated on here before, and still not sure if it's "wrong" as such, but the use of "laying" and "laid" bothers me, and seems to be a recent thing.

I'm pretty sure it is technically wrong, though it's certainly widespread. I think it maybe partly arises from the (admittedly confusing) fact that the past tense of 'lie' is 'lay'.

I tend to live by the mantra that if I can understand what someone is saying I don't really care how it is being said.

Good plan, juice92. After all, we have no control over how other people use language, only over our own reaction to it. Allowing yourself to get wound up by other people's grammar mistakes is an exercise in pointlessness. And I say that as someone part of whose job it is to correct grammar mistakes!

Incidentally, I was interested to hear Dolly Parton say "I've been waiting while I'm old enough to get it..." Many would say 'until.' Dialects are fascinating!

That sounds like Yorkshire to me, where ‘while’ is often used in place of ‘until’. Apparently they had to change the notice on some trains saying ‘Please do not use the toilet while the train is standing in the station’ as this was causing confusion to some people!