To find snobbery around vocabulary very silly?

[crayolacom]

I too don't particularly like the idea of regional dialects and differences disappearing, but language does change and everyone should just deal with it!

I wonder if Shakespeare would be moaning about the modern lexicon if he was alive!

Cupoftea, many U.K. people get really annoyed by English people using americanisms.

It wouldn’t bother me if an English person used Irish pronunciations or phrases because so many English people are of Irish descent, so it would naturally happen.

On "didn't used to", is "used not to" not easier? I'd go for that one every time!

[quote lazylinguist]**@lazylinguist The only thing someone’s accent tells me is whereabouts in the country (or world) they were brought up.

Really? People's accent and language use can give you a lot more clues about them than that - about their social class, the people they frequent, their level and type of education, their religion, their aspirations or feelings about their own background (e.g. do they try and reduce their native accent or embrace it), even their line of work. Not everyone consciously notices these things, the signs are not always reliable, and lots of the things they indicate are things we should not necessarily care about and certainly should try very hard not to judge about, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.[/quote]
What a load of bollocks. Accent and language use are two very different things. Language use may tell you more about a person in certain respects but an accent tells you no more than where they were brought up.

It is snobby and its tedious and it says far more to me about the person doing the bitching.

^I didn't used to like watching Netflix, but I find it's become a lifeline during the pandemic.

Is that grammatically incorrect? What should it be instead?

I'm confused now!^

I didn’t USE to like watching...

[I'm having trouble quoting the previous posts]

I think the correct way of saying this is "I used not to".

@LlamaofDrama

On "didn't used to", is "used not to" not easier? I'd go for that one every time!

Thank you @LlamaofDrama, that is what I was trying to say!

I think it's interesting that ''I should of'' is a mistake made in the UK, Ireland, America... does that not tell us that it's just easier and more instinctive and that judging somebody for saying should of is kind of mean.

Cup of tea, haitch and aitch and herb and erb are both acceptable. They are just more commonly used in different locations.

They are not the same in the sense that you are not dropping an h from the spelling in aitch.

@Number3BigCupOfTea I think the point is that the correct spelling is "Aitch" so there is no H to drop whereas there is in herb

Years ago I saw a fascinating documentary, I think narrated by Stephen Fry. Apparently in WW1 the Germans were amazed by the variations in regional English which, in the days before widespread radio and tv, were so great that soldiers from some areas had difficulty understanding some from others despite all speaking the same language. They recorded prisoners of war and stored those recordings which are, apparently, the best records we have as those regional dialects have faded. I have never been able to find that to watch it again but think it may have related to this

I would also say they are different in the sense that some accents drop almost all aitches, while pronouncing erb in the US or haitch in Ireland are variations that are not connected to whether the person drops aitches from the beginning of words in general.

@QueenOfTheDoubleWide I think the variations in the uk & Ireland are so great. You can travel ten miles down the road and be able to distinguish a different accent. I could be wrong but i think in America you have to travel much further to notice a difference. I learnt one Scandinavian language and found that I could understand snippets in another even though the one I studied was not to a high level at all! So the scandinavians own their differences and call it their own language whereas we are locked in to a pattern of ''we say it right/you say it wrong''. Ok, i know there is more variance between Norwegian and Swedish than there is between Glaswegian and say the English of somebody from Kerry in Ireland, but possibly not that much more???

Queen, that is really interesting. I assume that Cecil Sharp House must have recordings of accents, but presumably not as good as these WW1 recordings.

Interesting article.

Is this true? I am C of I and went to a private school (protestant) in Dublin and we all said haitch as well.

IME (ROI RC private education living in NI) it's a Northern Irish thing rather than an Irish thing, but I find "Irish" is often used on MN when posters actually mean "Northern Irish". That's a whole other thread!

The same people who cry about terrible Americanisms killing the English language are also usually the people who expect everyone to speak just like they do.

I don't believe it is snobbery. There is simply a right way and a wrong way. Perpetuating the wrong way just makes a complete hash of a language with logical, well established grammar rules. I'm less concerned with spoken errors, being fascinated with words, dialets and language. But I believe that we must preserve the correct written word. For example it sounds as if some people say 'would of' in speech, but it's important they should only ever write 'would've' or 'would have', and can understand why that's correct.

Incidentally, I was interested to hear Dolly Parton say "I've been waiting while I'm old enough to get it..." Many would say 'until.' Dialects are fascinating!

@OldRailer

I think I've seen the youtuber with " no regional accent." I don't know north from South London but definitely from "down South."

If it’s the same bloke, I can tell you he was brought up between Tottenham and Hendon, went to a state comp but a “good” one, and parents were middle-class professionals but grandparents probably weren’t. It’s the very opposite of a “neutral” accent

And I always find that the people who can’t tell the difference between a Sheffield, Hull, Manchester and Newcastle accent seem to have no problem differentiating between Essex, Kent, Bristol, North London and South London accents

I'm from Northern Ireland original, but live elsewhere now.
I'm extremely offended that there are some in this thread criticising the way the letter "H" is pronounced. In Northern Ireland if I was in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong pronunciation, I could potentially have been in a troublesome situation.
There is a place for both, and no one should judge.

I don't mind regional words for things, but I can't stand bad grammar.

There's nothing wrong with "you could have bought a butty" or "I like their sarnies a lot" but fuck me: "you could of bought a sandwich" or " I like there sandwiches alot" isn't regional it's just wrong.

Regional differences in language make the world more interesting. Poor grammar isn't interesting it's just tedious.

As long as people are intelligible - who cares! Although I love some regional accents more than others. But that is a personal choice.

@Changechangychange

And I always find that the people who can’t tell the difference between a Sheffield, Hull, Manchester and Newcastle accent seem to have no problem differentiating between Essex, Kent, Bristol, North London and South London accents

That is simply because that is what they are used to. Until I moved to Yorkshire from South London over 40 years ago I doubt that I could have been able to tell the difference between a Lancashire and a Yorkshire accent. I can now. I can even tell the difference between a Leeds and a Bradford (local pronunciation Bratford) accent.

I also think that, as there are more regional accents on TV and other video media these days, we are exosed to a wider variety of accents than we were 40 years ago.

@Changechangychange

And I always find that the people who can’t tell the difference between a Sheffield, Hull, Manchester and Newcastle accent seem to have no problem differentiating between Essex, Kent, Bristol, North London and South London accents

It depends on the accents you’re used to, I can tell the different between Nottingham, Mansfield, Newark, Grantham etc. I wouldn’t have a clue about various accents in Yorkshire for example, I’m also rubbish at London accents despite living in North London.

It can be very silly, though I think there is a difference between those very serious snobbish about it and those who just have a preference for certain words or have a bit of fun with it. It's also silly when people cry awful Americanism for things that have clear European roots which happens all the time on MN.

I've spent about half my life in the Midwestern US with a lot of Southern kin and half my life in the East Midlands with my Northumbrian spouse. My accent and slipping between dialect word choices is weird to say the least. I've had a lot of difference guesses from Brits on where they think I sound like I'm from, but I've yet to have any get it right (most I've talked to aren't entirely clear where the Midwest even is though).

I recent wrote "...I haven't come across them that fits the description." in what was meant to be a serious academic discussion (oddly on linguistics and sociology). I knew it wasn't Standard English, it felt very dialect-heavy, but I couldn't be arsed to smooth my rough edges. Sometimes, I'm just too tired or annoyed to make myself not sound like a redneck, and sometimes it's the politest way to deal with someone who'd make some of my kin say "bless his heart..." (some dialects just have nicer sounding insults than others).

The Standard only became that way because those in power used and consolidated on it over centuries. It isn't inherently clearer than all other variants of English that have different rules, it's just that they have had the power to have the rules of what's become Standard taught to everyone. Not everyone even agrees on many of the rules and there are many different style guides and submission guidelines for a reason - people want consistency, but there are a lot of different opinions on language use.