Or should I just shut up at work?

[TalkLessSmileMorePlease]

I know that women are always told to be bold but I'm worrying that I'm annoying people. I've always been on to speak out, I guess it's my personality, I'm not loud but I find it hard to hide how I feel. When I was at primary school I tried to get a campaign going to ban meat in the cafeteria (this was the early 90's) and I started writing to my MP about overfishing when I was 11. I know, I sound exhausting.
I've been in my job about three years. I have no managerial responsibilities. I love where I work and what I do but there's loads of systems that just don't work well. I write emails to the management probably once a month or less. I speak out at team meetings. If others mention their concerns to me I sometimes raise it to someone but I never mention names. I do this because women (in admin especially) don't seem to like to being 'a bother.'
The way I see it I feel so passionately about wanting to find a solution that I can't not speak out. I get so frustrated with everyone moaning about things and never looking at solutions! Do they want a solution or do they just want something to moan about?
The downside is I always feel like the mouthy one. The mangers barely conceal their frustration when sending the 'this is just the way it is' emails. I then get frustrated because they're not the ones working with the shit, outdated systems. They don't understand the reality. I make it clear that I don't think I know it all or know better but I ask them if there are alternatives we can look into.
My direct line manager is supportive and tells me to keep raising stuff. However if everyone has issues with something and I raise it and no one backs me up or even speaks in team meetings, I look like an idiot. Sometimes I feel like some colleagues who do the bare minimum and regularly do less than me are actually more respected than me because they don't cause trouble.
I wish I wasn't like this and I could just file my nails and dream about what I was having for tea but I can't help it. Sorry I usually write more eloquently but this is rushed during a lunch break.

@Eddielzzard

I would just go ahead and change things. If this spreadsheet would make a big difference for the admin staff, suggest it to them, get them on board and then just do it. Why keep asking permission?

The ‘get them on board’ bit is the biggest step here and the one that OP has failed at

From a different perspective although I've seen others say the same thing. I am an ex female senior manager.
On one hand innovation in teams was brilliant . I always massively encouraged it. I worked with several brilliant women who came up with ideas and I helped implement them and backed them and it was wonderful. I've never been a shrinking violet myself so I massively support anyone raising new ideas or problem fixers.

However and this is a big one. I have lost absolute count of the amount of people who simply wouldn't listen or look at managements perspective. So so often there were very good reasons for things being done the way they were. Often a system that was claimed to be not fit for purpose was fine it just wasn't the way that person wanted it . (I always tested the systems on the ground myself or a trusted colleague). Very often it would be required to be a certain way for the ombudsman and one or two staff would complain without considering this.

I detest and find childish and silly the automatic assumption that managers aren't busy. I and my colleagues worked 70 hours a week at a minimum but because a couple of staff didn't want to see what we did as work they would waft around claiming we never fixed their issues because it suited them.

Look its brilliant to have a voice and try to change things but it comes down to this. Think carefully on whether some of what you do is to inflate your own feeling of importance rather than being prepared to muck in and solve problems considering the different nuances and issues around those problems. If you are sending emails expecting people to jump to without looking and thinking about the full picture then you are doing it for yourself.

Management is a skillet whether you think it is or not. Its one that requires the ability to know when to change and progress and when to hold tight. To balance multitudes of issues at the same time and quite often make the middle line work for for everyone. Consider carefully whether your requests are truly informed requests and opinions, not just from your own perspective.

@Eddielzzard

I would just go ahead and change things. If this spreadsheet would make a big difference for the admin staff, suggest it to them, get them on board and then just do it. Why keep asking permission?

Because in most jobs, you can't just do what you want?

@Eddielzzard

I would just go ahead and change things. If this spreadsheet would make a big difference for the admin staff, suggest it to them, get them on board and then just do it. Why keep asking permission?

For the same reason nobody listens to the OP: her bright ideas don't just impact her, and they don't work for the people who are impacted.

Sorry if this has already been covered, but in what way are you raising it?

Management might respond more positively if you frame it as “this is a problem. This is a solution to the problem that will increase productivity/reduce budget/raise morale etc etc. If you’re just writing and complaining they will ignore you. If you’re offering (cost effective) solutions to the problems then they’re idiots for not taking you up on it.

@Iamthewombat

Keep your head below the parapet, don’t rock the boat, never try to change things or you will be sacked

I don't think anyone is saying that

Yes they are. Somebody explicitly said that the OP was wrong to ‘raise her head above the parapet’ because she was ‘putting herself in the cross hairs of management’

No that's not what people mean.

Yes, it is. See above.

For anyone telling the OP that she cannot possibly make a suggestion until she has secured the buy in of all her colleagues...eh? Have you ever worked with blockers? They usually pour cold water on everything because they might have to do something different or engage with difficult problems. I don’t expect my problem solvers to come to me saying, “I’ve spent six months persuading everyone in the finance service centre that this is a good idea”. Good ideas are assessed from the perspective of the business, not whether all the employees like it.

It was me that said that. What I was advising the OP was not to take on other people’s moans and go into battle for them as nobody backs you up.

If OP has her own ideas and thinks she has a solution then yes go ahead.

It sounds as if your finest hour was when you were ten.

What has happened? You need to find a suitable outlet for your enthusiasm, perhaps in a campaigning role. Bear in mind though that any organisation will have procedures - some good some clearly idiotic.

Agree with others that one well-thought out and clearly-presented idea is better than a scattergun of suggestions.

@Shinyletsbebadguys

From a different perspective although I've seen others say the same thing. I am an ex female senior manager. On one hand innovation in teams was brilliant . I always massively encouraged it. I worked with several brilliant women who came up with ideas and I helped implement them and backed them and it was wonderful. I've never been a shrinking violet myself so I massively support anyone raising new ideas or problem fixers.

However and this is a big one. I have lost absolute count of the amount of people who simply wouldn't listen or look at managements perspective. So so often there were very good reasons for things being done the way they were. Often a system that was claimed to be not fit for purpose was fine it just wasn't the way that person wanted it . (I always tested the systems on the ground myself or a trusted colleague). Very often it would be required to be a certain way for the ombudsman and one or two staff would complain without considering this.

I detest and find childish and silly the automatic assumption that managers aren't busy. I and my colleagues worked 70 hours a week at a minimum but because a couple of staff didn't want to see what we did as work they would waft around claiming we never fixed their issues because it suited them.

Look its brilliant to have a voice and try to change things but it comes down to this. Think carefully on whether some of what you do is to inflate your own feeling of importance rather than being prepared to muck in and solve problems considering the different nuances and issues around those problems. If you are sending emails expecting people to jump to without looking and thinking about the full picture then you are doing it for yourself.

Management is a skillet whether you think it is or not. Its one that requires the ability to know when to change and progress and when to hold tight. To balance multitudes of issues at the same time and quite often make the middle line work for for everyone. Consider carefully whether your requests are truly informed requests and opinions, not just from your own perspective.

This. I am senior management and I have one person in my team who just will not stop criticising every process. I'm finding it really hard to convey the message that it isn't all about him. You don't get a perfect solution that works for everyone, it has to fit a wide range of purposes.

@RantyAnty

You sound like you're meant to do another role!

Business Analyst, Process Analyst, Change Management.

Their job is to find issues in process/systems, streamline them to make them better, save time and money.

In IT, they gather the requirements for a change or new system.

Look into those. Most you can do a fairly short course and take a certification exam.

Definitely not change management-the way OP seems to go about things is destined to alienate rather than get people on board and all that does is cause consternation, chaos and breakdown

Nothing wrong with changing the status quo (if it really does need changing) its how its done that is important and OP doesn't seem to have the soft skills needed for this.

I totally get it, Op. I am the same!

To be honest, NHS admin is probably the worst environment you could be in. The systems are slow and laborious. NHS admin is very low paid and rarely attracts particularly dynamic people who want to simplify and streamline processes. You are probably a complete oddity.

I too think I am seen as a bit 'uppity' so really have to rein in my opinions. It's hard. You have my sympathies!

Why don't you focus on your own role and streamlining that? If there is a referral spreadsheet that would help, could you start it and stick it on a shared drive? Refer to it each time? I've found this approach works pretty well (not perfect of course!) but people seem to like seeing things in action. If they're not process oriented then they'll really struggle to visual what the hell you are talking about!

Private sector is slightly more receptive to change than NHS by the way!

@AlexaShutUp

I still imagine the manager as someone who has an idea and works hard to make it a reality, not someone who turns up for the paycheck and has probably been beaten down by their own managers over the years.

Sometimes it's about headspace/bandwidth, OP. It isn't necessarily that the manager doesn't care about improving stuff (although that might be true in some cases) but they're probably working on a load of other issues/projects which may be at least as important or even more important than the changes that you are suggesting. You don't have the same perspective on the organisation that they do, so you may not be aware of some of the other priorities.

I get that it's discouraging for your suggestions to be ignored. It's highly likely that some of your feedback is valid. You just need to learn to filter it a bit so that people don't just roll their eyes and think @TalkLessSmileMorePlease is off on one again whenever you have a point to raise.

Would you say that you have a tendency to see things in quite black and white way, without many shades of grey?

Yes I think Alexa has hit the nail on the head. Even having a small child and moving into a new house which had a lot of problems, I get a lot of people suggesting to me on a daily basis things I could do which would make things better and easier. It's all things I already know and to an outsider it looks as though I'm making things hard on myself. But that's easy to see with a vision but a lot harder to actually implement given my time resources and energy that I have. For example someone would question why I didn't have a sink strainer to prevent my drains getting blocked recently and they haven't realised that it's 53rd on my list of things to sort out that they have no idea about and other things are still needing to be fixed which are higher priority. I guess if you were going to implement the shared spreadsheet creation yourself it would be different. But you could definitely find a role that does have room for ideas, suggestions and outspokenness. I have a lot of ideas too but I usually find the best thing to do is to write them down and let them go.

@Cam2020

But, the pita people get important things done. Like abolishing slavery, like votes for women, like legalising homosexuality, the list goes on and on. The world is a far, far better place for people who speak up and say “we can make this better”. We shouldn’t be afraid to rock the boat. Some boats need rocking.

Righto. First time I've seen implementing spreadsheets compared with abolishing slavery and other important social issues.

This made me laugh

I think you need to look into a charitable or professional role of being a Activist (campaigning on one particuliar issue or varies issues that you feel passionate about !

I think you would be much better suited in a role in which you coud make a potential difference way.

Ps Just thinking are you interested or curious about local politics in any way for e.g I wonder being a political counsellor would be something to look into
as it would involves working on behalf of your local community in various different ways .

Your not wrong to raise issues of inefficiency-in my company it’s encouraged and welcome. However it does seem that your upper management is fatigued with your emails and nothing is changing. One of the best things I have learned from being a manager is that just because something is at upmost importance to you it does not mean for the company it is a priority or possible and changes to your system could cause major issues to others/departments. More likely change is in the works but changing systems-IT in particular can take years, and constant emails about it pisses people off. I have also found that it makes employees look short sighted and unable to see the bigger picture-an example being that my assistant manager spent a lot of time, sent a lot of emails and it turned out having increasingly irate telephone calls about an issue that would have been expensive to fix, un-needed and was going to be fixed a few months down the line anyway with a massive IT upgrade. It made him look really bad, as he could not see past his own nose and as a result he is not taken seriously with his suggestions.

@Eddielzzard

I would just go ahead and change things. If this spreadsheet would make a big difference for the admin staff, suggest it to them, get them on board and then just do it. Why keep asking permission?

because it's a great way to piss off your supervisors.

Sorry, OP, but you sound insufferable, IMO.

@ajandjjmum

Are you Meghan Markle?

Spot on!

You sound like a bit of a nightmare to be honest. I would hate to work with someone like that, thinking you can speak for other people and sending a moaning email every month. I can imagine your colleagues rolling their eyes every time you open your mouth.

When I was at primary school I tried to get a campaign going to ban meat in the cafeteria (this was the early 90's)

Are you still as extreme as this? I can see why you might petition for veggie options, but for the abolition of meat altogether because of what you believe is very self centred, however noble you believe the cause to be. Managers do have different priorities, often certain data will be required to be kept in x format and y to be reported to their managers, it's not always just a case of changing stuff at user level and there being no impact. You don't have to consider that, but they do. Do you put forward realistic changes? Most teams are stretched, and by agreeing to what usually turns out to be a big piece of work they are also taking on more stress, as are your colleagues. I'd be questioning whether you had enough work or not to be so keen to spend time making all these awesome changes.

Why are people acting as if veggie primary schools aren't a thing. My kids go to one, and they eat meat. No one needs to eat meat three times a day. Plus for the paltry amount of money allocated to a child for one meal making it veggie means that you are making it go further and can buy better quality ingredients.
My kids love sausages and pizza and they have never once complained about their school meals. It actually is easier as we live in an area with lots of religious and cultural groups and veggie pleases all so you don't have to have pork sausages, chicken sausages and veggie sausages.
Also it means the kids who've never seen a butternut squash or a leek actually try them and don't just go for chips every time.
It's not for everyone but I don't know why everyone gets so het up about kids missing out on shit quality meat for lunch. Veggie is like school uniform for the gut. Plus better for the planet if you go for straight veg and not meat alternatives.

@Eddielzzard

I would just go ahead and change things. If this spreadsheet would make a big difference for the admin staff, suggest it to them, get them on board and then just do it. Why keep asking permission?

I know someone who did this. They were to change it back immediately and then to leave. The company chose to pay their notice period and cut their losses.

What they thought was a great idea and easier for everyone was a complete pain in the neck for all who actually used it.

You’re in the wrong job OP. Many companies value energy, enthusiasm and ideas. And possibly the wrong country - U.K. productivity is 16% below average in the G7 - and with attitudes like your workplace it’s hardly surprising.

You have the vim to be successful in business, but I think you’re channelling it into a brick wall. Many successful people are pia - look at Alan Sugar, Branson, Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk. Do you think they ever cared about annoying people?

I've thankfully never had to manage someone like this but if I had I think it would have been a matter of not passing them through probation.

Have you applied for any management jobs? That's really the only way to get the power to change this type of thing.

@Bluntness100

Op, reading hour posts, it sounds like you think you know better than the managers, and that there is a resentment there that you feel. That you’re in a low level job and they aren’t, but you have this wealth of experience that they don’t respect of acknowledge. So you’re constantly striving to show this ability level. By pointing out how to do things better, or what’s wrong.

Yet, like the vegetarian school thought, you’ve not moved passed that self focused, slightly immature mindset that you are fundamentally wrong and your idea is unusable or poor.

Yeah, I agree with this. It smacks of those awful Facebook bios that say something like “I tell it like it is. Don’t like? Scroll on by/fuck off”, etc. There doesn’t seem to be an awful lot of self awareness.

That's thought provoking and very interesting.!

I did not know about that eating a more exlusively vegan/vegetarian diet can have that effect on challenging behaviours patterns.

I will have to look more into what you said about that topic.