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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is there any woman who hasn’t experienced male harrassment

999 replies

Twintub · 12/03/2021 08:31

I was thinking about this and was initially thinking things have massively improved since I was young in the 80’s. I experienced flashers, a teacher tried to kiss me in high school he was married baby on the way, a pub boss whose girlfriend worked with him tried to kiss and grope me and another middle aged boss in my late 20s that pulled my trousers down at a night away for work. There were many more. Now I’m in my 40s I thought I don’t get bothered much but then I remembered 2 other pre covid instances. One late night train a drunk guy tried to chat to friend she politely said she wasn't interested and he got Aggressive calling her a speccy lesbian. Another instance my friend and I in a pub and a middle aged drunk man obviously on a business trip chatted up my friend she wasn’t interested I very nicely said we are just having a chat he turned on me and called me an ugly bitch He wasn’t talk h to me and I wasn’t a patch on her etc etc his work mates dragged him away.

What amazes me is men behave like this bit raise daughters who in turn get treated like this.

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LexMitior · 13/03/2021 10:00

A really good point. Well that’s the impact of porn. You do get posters here describing actual criminal offences and not knowing that they have been assaulted or raped.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/03/2021 10:10

I forgot another one - when I was living in the US I received a 'dirty phone call'. I'm sure it was random and he'd have said the same thing to any woman who answered and hung up on a man, but it was disconcerting to say the least. (I barely knew anyone except DH and he travelled a lot so I was very much on my own).
Do men ever get random sexual calls like that?

Twintub · 13/03/2021 10:12

Oh I forgot about heavy breathing calls rife in the 80s

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Roussette · 13/03/2021 10:14

God yes... they were rife. There was no mobile phones back when we used to get them. No caller display. So you had no choice but to answer the phone and be subjected to them.

toodleloooo · 13/03/2021 10:37

I'm late twenties. From comparing my experiences with those of my mum and certain other women I know I am tentatively hopeful that levels of physical harassment - in particular, touching - have gone down a bit in recent years. Not saying they don't still happen by any means or that we should accept current levels but it sounds like in the 80s/earlier the levels were something else. Everyone my mum's age seems to have groping stories - awful. Normally a not so close relative/family friend. Same with flashing.

Comments are still very frequent, though. People beeping/shouting out of passing vehicles. People boxing you in on public transport at night who "just want a chat". All things that can leave you questioning your own behaviour which just tells you society's still doing women a disservice in how it talks about this issue.

Namenic · 13/03/2021 10:39

Lex mitior - you make interesting points.

Do you think a greater effort to prosecute cases and gather evidence could help? On the one hand, sometimes the most horrific crimes have no evidence, but are there things we could do to collect more evidence which would help convictions?

I don’t know about whether talking to strangers can be prosecuted, but persistent approaches we might be able to gather more evidence for? I think convictions, sentences and a police record could deter some people.

Twintub · 13/03/2021 10:44

@toodleloooo I think you are right what was the norm in the 80s was horrific but probably better than the decades before it. I do think though it’s more fear of losing their jobs and being prosecuted that stops them. Of course it’s not all men but there is an underlying current of disrespect which is bewildering as we are their mothers, sisters, daughters and partners. We can only try and educate the young men we are raising now.

The biggest change to this end for me would be the men Who don’t agree calling out other men And not sitting in silence. To not say anything is to be complicit.

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Strugglingtodomybest · 13/03/2021 10:45

I'd like to add my voice to this thread. I literally haven't got time to list all the incidents, and probably couldn't anyway as there are far too many to remember. But it started at school as soon as I grew breasts, and has, over the years, included cat-calling, groping, inappropriate comments, leering, flashing (including wanking), all the way up to and including rape. It has been from men in my family, friends, co-workers, bosses, partners and strangers. It has just been part of my life in short.

Twintub · 13/03/2021 10:52

Thinking about it regarding cat calls low level harassment some would say but imagine we added the word black before the comment. There would be total (rightly so) outrage And a lot of men would call out racism but not sexual ‘banter‘.

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LexMitior · 13/03/2021 11:03

@Namenic

Lex mitior - you make interesting points.

Do you think a greater effort to prosecute cases and gather evidence could help? On the one hand, sometimes the most horrific crimes have no evidence, but are there things we could do to collect more evidence which would help convictions?

I don’t know about whether talking to strangers can be prosecuted, but persistent approaches we might be able to gather more evidence for? I think convictions, sentences and a police record could deter some people.

I worked in crime for some time and I think you have to start small by making consequences in wider society - schools are key moral arbiters in this, ensuring sexual comments or possession of porn is something that gets you suspended and thereafter expelled. You set a standard.

Porn use inevitably normalizes conduct as fantasy. Yet in the last few years we have had to get laws in for upskirting, removing bdsm as a defence to murder, and soon strangulation. 20 years ago these were not significant problems but now they are because of men running defenses on the basis of consent. That has effectively threatened the ability of women to say “no” to choking etc. Porn can become a new societal standard very quickly.

Do we need to educate more; I think so. It’s like we can’t bear to tell our girls that men might do these things. But we need also to show that our schools don’t implicitly agree by doing nothing.

Skatastic · 13/03/2021 11:03

I have been harassed by men on loads of occasions. Was sunbathing in my garden when I was about 13 and some charmer was wanking through the fence. Police told me I should check for people before I did it again? Got flashed when I was a bit older. Had loads of bother on public transport.

My 15 year old daughter was cat called by some cunts who drove past her on her walk home the other day. It is absolutely disgusting.

Namenic · 13/03/2021 11:22

Lex - the porn is an interesting one. I am anti porn and won’t continue in a relationship with someone who uses it. But it is not technically illegal (though the making of some of it is likely due to illegal exploitation) and lots of women would say they use it and are ok with it. I mean I think page 3 was kinda porn (though in comparison to now - tame). I think we have missed the boat for no porn as a societal standard - I think it is expected now - unfortunately.

Can schools police what kids do in their homes - that is not illegal (for adults)? Perhaps it should be a social services case - ie parents should put in safeguards so that their child does not have porn on devices (though we would need lots of education on the best ways of doing this).

Whilst I am not a fan of trial by media, and am aware of deep fakes, do you think people should video incidents of harassment and bring it to police in case the victim wanted to report it and take a case forward?

oil0W0lio · 13/03/2021 11:28

people should video incidents of harassment and bring it to police in case the victim wanted to report it and take a case forward?
Yes I think it would be a good thing if if bystanders routinely pulled out their phones to document harassment and abuse, this is a way of supporting the victim without putting yourself in immediate danger

LexMitior · 13/03/2021 11:28

@Namenic

Yes it is a safeguarding issue. This occurred recently at a primary school when a boy made repeated sexual comments to girls in the playground.

Instead of complaining about the boy, I advised my friend to make it a safeguarding issue with the school as it suggested the boy was being exposed to porn.

It was the right button to press - the parents had to admit that this was a problem and after a short period of suspension social services got involved.

Donotfeedthebears · 13/03/2021 11:35

When I used to live in a certain area of London, I would avoid walking down the high street as there would be lots of men standing round staring at women and making comments. I walked through “the passage” instead which ran behind the houses and almost got mugged instead!

When I lived in the Middle East, a colleague and I were surrounded by a gang of youths who tried to grope us. We reported it to the airline and were told it must have been because we were wearing indecent clothes! Loose trousers and tops. I started to cover my head when I went outside and still got harassed every day. Hmm

TrufflyPig · 13/03/2021 11:39

I have told this story on MN before but when I was in my early 20's a boss guilt tripped me into working a late shift, when I said there was no bus home he offered me a lift so I would be 'safe'.

He spent the drive with his hand on my knee. He then tried to move it up my thigh. I told him I was getting out because 'my dad is a policeman and he worries about me a lot'. I think that honestly put him off doing any worse. He made threats that I wouldn't have a job if 'tales were told' about him.

I still had to turn up for work the next day and pretend nothing had happened.

He went on to later strangle his wife. During the trial it turned out he was having multiple affairs and his wife was going to leave him so he killed her.

He is due for release this year having served just over half his sentence.

This kind of behaviour is rarely an isolated incident.

sashh · 13/03/2021 11:40

I mean I think page 3 was kinda porn (though in comparison to now - tame). I think we have missed the boat for no porn as a societal standard - I think it is expected now - unfortunately.

Pictures of a 16 year old Sam Fox were published in a national newspaper. Now those same pictures can get you a conviction for 'possessing an indecent image of a child' so there is some progress.

Namenic · 13/03/2021 12:09

Perhaps make it routine for officers to be able to look at the photos section of phones on the spot when a charge of upskirting is made? I dunno if there are legal concerns about this - perhaps give people the option to be accompanied by the officer to a station, so that it can be looked at with multiple people present (reducing likelihood of images being planted there or unnecessary snooping)?

We allow people to be stopped and tested if suspected of drink driving or searched for weapons (if adequate reason).

Roussette · 13/03/2021 12:17

twitter.com/HackneyAbbott/status/1370686109643079680

Well worth a watch. Chris Hemmings, author and activist ... he got the BBC straplines changed from 'Womens' safety concerns' to 'Male Violence against Women'

Wehaveanunderstanding · 13/03/2021 12:26

I'm 28 and have not experienced male harassment or even come close to. There's obviously a lot of women out there who have been, but I think the numbers are exaggerated and are still small compared to those who have not been.

I think exactly the opposite and would say the numbers are under reported if anything. Women tend to under report because these incidents go from embarrassing and unpleasant to downright traumatising. And as these incidents often happen when there is no one else around, many women are aware that the default setting of many people is stuck in the "reluctant to believe" position.

To give my own example, I would say in the grand scheme of things, despite being well travelled, that I have lived a fairly sheltered, cautious and unadventurous life (not that it should matter what sort of life you choose to live!) and I was propositioned as a twelve year old child in the street by a stranger who pretended to know my family and touched one of my breasts, I only got away because an ambulance driver was nearby having a cigarette, I was terrified and the police were involved. A waiter at a hotel where I was staying with my parents as a teen knocked on my door and tried to get in to the room. A man at university went along the dorm corridor trying to put his foot in my door and that of other female students. I had a man in a hobby group send me inappropriate texts for about six years even though I told him to my face they weren't welcome and could he please stop. I was upstairs on a London bus in the early evening where a man masturbated openly in the seat behind me, forcing me to go downstairs and inform the driver. A man came up to me when I was standing outside a metro supermarket at 7pm in a winter night, wearing a long dark winter wool coat, waiting to meet my husband and said some really vile things in quite a threatening manner, that I had to walk back in to the shop and ask for help.

Apart from a previous thread on here, I have never written all of these incidents down together and I have rarely, if ever, spoken about all of them them to anyone else, not even my close family and husband. Not one person in RL knows the entire list. I'm in my fifties and I have never been in a conversation where incidents such as this were discussed with my female or male friends. It's generally just not done! And I think that's part of the problem.

So this is a very long-winded way of saying that if my experience is fairly typical then the opposite of over-reporting and exaggeration is happening!

LordOfTheOnionRings · 13/03/2021 12:28

My first sexual harassment was walking to school at twelve when there was a man masturbating in full view of me and my friends whilst shouting things, we were so young we thought he was going for a wee! Nope.

13 was when I started getting shouted at by men in vans.

PenfoldPenny · 13/03/2021 12:29

I cant think of a time when Ive been harrassed by a man (or woman) tbh. Certainly nothing more than 30 seconds of someone being annoying.
But I "think" almost everyone else I know has experienced harrassment so my experience is unusual.

Roussette · 13/03/2021 12:30

Not one person in RL knows the entire list

Exactly the same for me. There is not one person in the world who knows all of it. Basically because there's been too much of it.

I had a convo with one of my adult DDs yesterday and we were talking about the whole situation, and I just threw in a couple of my worst ones... she was shocked but not surprised. She's had harrassment out on the streets.

Twintub · 13/03/2021 12:39

Some men don’t realise they are doing it. My husband recently disciplined a man after a number of complaints he genuinely thought he was being charming and just bantering. In the end he Got a payout to just go quietly under the guise of redundancy.

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Bythemillpond · 13/03/2021 12:41

Blueberries0112

I am not pretty at all they still harass me. Groped me when I was in high school. You probably been around men who were raised right

Then might I suggest everyone goes to live in really seedy and dodgy areas as those men have been raised right.
Or it could be just me and the aura of Fuck Off I give off