Police advising women not to walk alone at night

[Bubbinsmakesthree]

I’ve seen a lot of friends outraged at the Met police locally advising women not to walk alone at night in the days following the disappearance of Sarah Everard. I’ve seen a posts along the lines of ‘how about telling men not to attack women instead?’

I absolutely agree with the wider point that we should be asking the question “how do we make it safe for women?” not “how do women stay out of danger?”

But in this case, was the police’s advice not just the equivalent of advising people to stay out of the water following a shark attack?

I’m so upset and angry about Sarah Everard but I cannot get incensed about the police advising women to take precautions when an unknown attacker may have still been in the area.

@LucilleTheVampireBat

It isn't acceptable for this to be the message. Not at all. It shouldn't even be considered.

How does it deal with the issue of male violence? It doesn't. It makes it my problem and my responsibility to avoid it. If I don't, well, I was warned eh?

What about women who have no choice? Who work shifts, who can't afford a taxi home and the buses stop at 11. Is it tough tits? The good girls who obeyed didn't get raped so she's collateral damage?

Makes me rage that in the year 2021 the solution to male violence is to tell women to change their behaviour.

VERY well said @LucilleTheVampireBat

My dd is 13 and autistic. It terrifies me what she will navigate.
I talk to her about being really CAREFUL, but actually you can never be careful enough because IF a man wants to hurt you, he will anyway :(

I live alone.
I have to walk home in the dark on my own past a wooded area after late shifts, and as it's near the hospital ED I have often run into some drunk men, eg. Or intimidating gangs of local lads.

It's easy for the Police to say don't walk alone but if you have to, then you have to.

Thinking of Sarah Everard tonight, RIP.

I was so angry when I realised that the message was for women to change their behaviour rather than stricter laws surrounding crimes of this nature, increased patrols, a big drive in raising awareness of self defence etc. The message should be that women are not targets and the full force of the police and the law is doing everything the can to protect us

@toocold54

Many years ago in Israel there was a horrific number of rapes. The answer suggested by the (largely male) Israeli parliament was to set a curfew for women. The then Prime Minister, Golda Meir, said "It's not the women who are doing the raping."

Well done to the prime minister. Were the men given a curfew do you know?

No. They weren't.

(No surprises there . . . )

I was equally incensed with headlines today about a curfew for men
I am female and been sexually abused as a child, sexually assaulted and raped as an adult (separate incidents) and mugged twice
I don’t have an answer but not allowing my DS or DP out at night isn’t either

@PowerslidePanda

The people who are getting het up about women being told what to do, etc... When you leave the house and there's nobody else home, do you lock your doors? Because by the same logic, you shouldn't even have to have a lock - why should you live in fear of being burgled, etc.

Advising people to minimise the risk to themselves is not the same as victim blaming.

But would the burglar be aquitted because the door was a pretty colour, therefore it was asking for it?

Would the householder be blamed for having a large and well looked after house, because clearly, that's advertising you're well off and just inviting a burglar?

Would the burglar get off because you forgot to lock your door once and his legal team went through all your devices and spoke to many people in your life to prove this and discredit you, saying that as you once left your door unlocked, you were agreeing to be burgled by anyone who wanted to at any point in the future?

If you'd previously spoken to said burglar on your drive unwittingly, does them proving this mean that actually, you're the one at fault, you were asking for it?

If said burglar burns your house down with your own cooker, is it ok for them to blame you because ya know, it's your cooker?

When I worked in a hospital some berk turned off the street lights around it to save money putting staff at risk. They did nothing for months until a senior member of staff got assaulted (others did too but they were blamed).

My council has lowered the lights so much it's impossible to see whose coming the other way if out after dark. I reported it after going out at Christmas for some food and got told to go during the day as they couldn't afford to have "blaring" street lights. They already go off from midnight (11pm summer) until sunrise. It's really dangerous.

I have a family member who nearly died at the hands of her DCI husband, my "loving uncle", after a lifetime of abuse (nothing was done about him and she needs to move home frequently because of harassement by him and his "colleagues") so I don't trust police anyway after that. I remember being required to go to an essential class on women's safety at school - run by him. Makes me sick now knowing what he was doing to my aunt whilst giving classes on safety. He still does them now.

I think this case is extremely rare , your more likely to be attacked by someone you know than some random psychopath roaming the streets and even less likely it’s a police officer .
I think in this case be careful when you go is irrelevant it’s clear he’s a predator and used his profession to get his victim, nobody would have a chance .
Everyone needs to be careful men , woman , old , young .

@notacooldad

Whilst I agree the message comes across as victim blaming it us a good rule for me to follow. I know men shouldn't rape I know that men shouldn't kill However they still do. Guardian angels aren't going to save me if one is on the prowl and sees me as a target. I can't rule out all risk but I can do my best to reduce it and not put my self in a vulnerable position. I might not like having to so that but so be it.

I agree with this, nothing is going to change ,women have always been in this position . I am so angry at what has happened . My husband ,a kind , respectful man , brought up well by the same kind of man doesn't get how we from a young age are subjected to the vile actions, words etc from vile men who think they can do as they like. He has no experience of being groped , flashed at , followed , curb crawled etc , you all know the examples. He has no understanding of what it feels like as a female to be fearful of a man. We are all conditioned to be on our guard , to not take risks and however much rage we feel over yet another life snuffed out , another loving family with their hearts ripped out , we will be forever in danger of such men.

As someone has pointed out upthread, we don't yet know that this police officer is the culprit. There is a long way to go yet, and other evidence may come to light.

BUT, whoever killed Sarah - I would be surprised if it is the first time he has assaulted a woman. As a PP has mentioned, offenders tend to start off with "mild" offences (!) such as indecent exposure, and progress to physical assault and then, horrifically, some of them murder.

This may be the first time that Sarah's attacker has killed, but I doubt it's his first attack.

@phoenixrosehere

More men than women are killed by men, by quite a large percentage. Male violence is a problem for both sexes

Even more reason that males should have a curfew to protect women and males from other males.

Good idea - punish the victims of violence as well as the perpetrators.

@JaceLancs

I was equally incensed with headlines today about a curfew for men I am female and been sexually abused as a child, sexually assaulted and raped as an adult (separate incidents) and mugged twice I don’t have an answer but not allowing my DS or DP out at night isn’t either

I feel the same as you. I’ve also been sexually assaulted by men I knew. Unfortunately, I think people of any sex will have to be on their guard when walking alone in a quiet area in the dark.

If there is a specific dangerous person targeting a particular group, of course the police should say.

If a crazy murderer was targeting black older women, or gay men, in an area, people would flip their lids if it turned out the police could have warned people but didn't.

I suppose they could say "Please people with characteristic x, there is a crazy person targeting members of your group in this area, when they are out walking," without actually saying, avoid walking alone. But guess what - people would then avoid walking alone because they are not idiots.

In the general case, people decide if something they will do is risky and what the risk is worth to them. I think many people are over-careful about certain areas, and women more often than men, but they have a right to choose and I don't think it is wrong to tell people there is risk.

As for "tell men not to attack women" that is right up there with "tell drug addicts not to break into cars" or "tell people with money problems not to embezzle" as ways to bring down crime. There is little one can say to anyone who thinks this is a reasonable suggestion.

I believe it is sensible for people who may put themselves in dangerous situations, whether they be men or women, to consider the risks and maybe decide to make themselves less vulnerable.

If my child wanted to cycle home in the dark I would insist that they wore some reflective gear. I would not say “No you should not wear reflective gear because if a driver doesn’t see you, runs you over and kills you it will be their fault not yours or mine.”

But would the burglar be aquitted because the door was a pretty colour, therefore it was asking for it?

That's a separate point entirely. Suppose we lived in a world where the perpetrators of such crimes were always caught, always brought to justice and there was never any victim blaming. That still wouldn't prevent the crimes. It still wouldn't make it ok that they happened. And it would still be prudent to minimise the risks to yourself where possible.

@Clymene

The best advice for women would be to never share their home with a man because the men we share our lives and our beds with are far more likely to rape, assault and murder us than any other man.

I can't imagine that would be a popular message though.

this can't be said often enough

2006 the Ipswich murders the way they spoke about some of the women was awful.

While I agree that men should be discouraged from killing women...
realistically, if a man wants to hurt a woman, he will do so. (in general, women are physically not as strong than men)
So I don't think you are necessarily being unreasonable.
However, women shouldn't be expected to stay at home to not be attacked, any more than people should be expected to stay at home to avoid any kind of crime.

Everyone needs to be careful men , woman , old , young

But vulnerable people are, by definition, less able to protect themselves.

Someone pointed out that men kill more other men than they kill women (as if that makes male violence alright). However a man attacked by another man will be physically more able to defend himself - and these attacks usually occur because of drunkenness, or personal dislike etc. A man might be victimised because he's wearing the wrong scarf at a football match, or because he's carrying on with someone's wife/girlfriend, or because he's "disrespected" someone, etc

Only women are vulnerable because they are women.

Men's sex doesn't make them vulnerable - women's sex does.

And yes - most women are killed by their partners, but that doesn't alter the fact that they are intrinsically vulnerable. Women are expected not to "provoke" men (ie do as they are told); their fears are dismissed; assaults are attributed to "lads being lads"; they are blamed for their own rapes and beatings.

Stop blaming women. It's not our fault.

Stop saying men get killed, too. We know they do - that's not our fault either.

When women are attacked by predatory men, it's because they are women. And they are easy to rape and kill.

I’ve never felt safe walking home in the dark alone, people may say I should feel safe but I don’t and that’s fact.
What happened to this poor woman is so awful made even worse by the fact that a woman reported the same man for indecent exposure only a few days earlier, the Met Police are possibly the worst force in the UK and have a lot to answer for. So many dodgy coppers amongst their ranks and questions need answering.

@Vietnammark

I believe it is sensible for people who may put themselves in dangerous situations, whether they be men or women, to consider the risks and maybe decide to make themselves less vulnerable.

If my child wanted to cycle home in the dark I would insist that they wore some reflective gear. I would not say “No you should not wear reflective gear because if a driver doesn’t see you, runs you over and kills you it will be their fault not yours or mine.”

This is sensible advice, but when you are vulnerable because of your sex (or any other characteristic you can not change), it's impossible to make yourself less so.

It’s so tiring watching the same old narratives being played out.

This attacker will have probably had some sexual motivation and may well have attacked when he perceived he would be discovered. The alternatives are even grimmer. I spent years on cases like these and they all appeared to be “nice men” but all had very misogynistic attitudes, entitlement and lots of pornography.

Some were married with children. Some terrorised their spouses, others at home.

The only thing you could really identify is that their crimes started out small, assault, or sexual misconduct against women. I would never go a near such a man - not worth the risk. They often had societally acceptable excuses for their behaviour, which were accepted.

When you leave the house and there's nobody else home, do you lock your doors? Because by the same logic, you shouldn't even have to have a lock - why should you live in fear of being burgled, etc.

Although it would be unfair if only half of the people had to lock their houses because the other half who didn't lock their doors were the ones burgling them..

@twelly

I feel we need more public cameras which work

This.

More and more crimes seem to rely on private homes or shops cctv, we need a reliable public network.

Good point ballpark