Police advising women not to walk alone at night

[Bubbinsmakesthree]

I’ve seen a lot of friends outraged at the Met police locally advising women not to walk alone at night in the days following the disappearance of Sarah Everard. I’ve seen a posts along the lines of ‘how about telling men not to attack women instead?’

I absolutely agree with the wider point that we should be asking the question “how do we make it safe for women?” not “how do women stay out of danger?”

But in this case, was the police’s advice not just the equivalent of advising people to stay out of the water following a shark attack?

I’m so upset and angry about Sarah Everard but I cannot get incensed about the police advising women to take precautions when an unknown attacker may have still been in the area.

@Ironfloor269

Perhaps all schools should include martial arts as a subject in the curriculum. So that girls grow up learning how to defend themselves?

I am afraid that most women will not be able to defend themselves against a man however skilled at martial arts and just incenses the man to greater levels of violence. In a situation where a woman is trapped, the safest is to keep still and hope it ends with her still being alive without too much life changing injury.

Once again, teaching women self defence puts the onus on them to stop an attack. Men really shouldn't be attacking in the first place.

Of course every woman would love to be able to walk alone at midnight if she wants and not have to worry. Of course it's a great thing to discuss so that men can check their behaviours and make changes to how they see and treat women and tell their friends to do the same if they see bad behaviour from them. I will be teaching my boys how to treat women with respect.

But the sad fact is that even if we change the behaviour of all the men who treat women badly, make lewd comments or make women feel uncomfortable, the serious players ie the rapists and murderers will still be there and I for one, will still be taking what precautions I can to make sure I'm as safe as I can be. Tbh my DH wouldn't walk the streets at midnight either as men can get murdered too.

@nicegerbil
Sorry new to this I just couldn’t seem to reply to the comment it attaches somewhere else I just wanted to say that you were braver than I might be in facing them and its good to hear that you reported it even if it wasn’t acted upon it helps me feel that I can take it seriously because you did but lets hope we don’t have to be in these situations ever again . There are too many where I didn’t report

Its been all over social media hachtag men curfew! if only but would never happen. Yes its a policeman that is suspect hes supposed to of exposed himself before this incident, also heard theres a chance of a second policeman being involved too. so they advising us to protect ourselves against the very people who are supposed to protect us! Hope im not repeating what others have already written ive just come in from work and not read all previous posts.

Doing female only martial arts/ self defence at school has benefits for sure. Fitness, confidence etc.

The idea that it would mean that women/ girls IRL could defend themselves against a bloke, in general, is sadly just not realistic.

And as I mentioned earlier if it did work they would just prey on more vulnerable victims. Which is not great.

Once again, teaching women self defence puts the onus on them to stop an attack. Men really shouldn't be attacking in the first place

No, you're right. Nobody should be attacking anybody else. But, given that people do attack people, and people always have and always will, do you really want to put the responsibility for your life with every single individual who might ever attack you, including those who are psychopathic or otherwise mentally unhinged? Rather than trying to take as much responsibility for it yourself as you possibly can?

Do you really just think that one day all the dangerous people are going to say 'Oh, yeah, sorry. I was going to murder you, but now I realise that the onus is on me not to murder you, so, I've changed my mind, now.'?

Do you not think that learning self defense helps some people, sometimes, when they are attacked?

The arguments on this thread are ridiculous. It's as if someone is standing on the other side trying to justify that what happened to Sarah Everard is actually an acceptable thing, and lots of you are arguing against that person. But that person doesn't exist. Nobody holds that argument. Nobody thinks it's ok. No men, and no women. Everybody agrees that it shouldn't have happened. Everybody is horrified.

I agree that we need to do something about the way some men treat women, but people who murder aren't representatives of all men. They're representatives of a hideous aberration of humanity.

@NiceGerbil

'. So getting a taxi is not the chariot to safety'

And of course. John warboys.

The actions of the met around that were shocking.

And then they were going to let him out recently until there was a public outcry!

Absolutely. I've never felt taxis are a safe at night. Lone woman with an unknown man with the power to drive you wherever he chooses to drive you. I prefer public transport if it drops you close to home. Had a horrific experience trying to get a friend to hospital late one night. Jumped into a black cab who drove where he pleased, told us he could do what he liked to us and no one would know, that his cab wasn't licensed, he bought it second hand. He was driving through red lights and going down dark alleys and cackling. I think he'd taken something. We jumped out and legged it through a housing estate where my friend's ex lived, woke him at three in the morning and got him to accompany us to the hospital. Until you mentioned Warboys I'd forgotten that one from the endless list of shitty things men do to frighten women for fun that I've experienced.

Why should anyone have a curfew because a minority of men commit heinous crimes?

Why would the police tell women to stay home when it’s a minority of women that are attacked?

@Eckhart

Once again, teaching women self defence puts the onus on them to stop an attack. Men really shouldn't be attacking in the first place

No, you're right. Nobody should be attacking anybody else. But, given that people do attack people, and people always have and always will, do you really want to put the responsibility for your life with every single individual who might ever attack you, including those who are psychopathic or otherwise mentally unhinged? Rather than trying to take as much responsibility for it yourself as you possibly can?

Do you really just think that one day all the dangerous people are going to say 'Oh, yeah, sorry. I was going to murder you, but now I realise that the onus is on me not to murder you, so, I've changed my mind, now.'?

Do you not think that learning self defense helps some people, sometimes, when they are attacked?

The arguments on this thread are ridiculous. It's as if someone is standing on the other side trying to justify that what happened to Sarah Everard is actually an acceptable thing, and lots of you are arguing against that person. But that person doesn't exist. Nobody holds that argument. Nobody thinks it's ok. No men, and no women. Everybody agrees that it shouldn't have happened. Everybody is horrified.

I agree that we need to do something about the way some men treat women, but people who murder aren't representatives of all men. They're representatives of a hideous aberration of humanity.

Perfectly put.

@Ijustknowitstimetogo

Why should anyone have a curfew because a minority of men commit heinous crimes?

Why would the police tell women to stay home when it’s a minority of women that are attacked?

They didn't. They might have suggested to people living on the roads nearby, to stay in when the murderer was at large. We don't know. But OP's friends telling her that is all that this OP is based on.

The Met have NOT advised that women don't go out alone at night. People have made that up, and are arguing against something that was never said and never happened. This thread is bizarre.

'I agree that we need to do something about the way some men treat women, but people who murder aren't representatives of all men. They're representatives of a hideous aberration of humanity.'

The 'monsters' argument is also one that seems to comfort people, but is also flawed.

Around the world murder rates differ a lot. Sex offences and sexually motivated murder levels vary.

So there is something societal.

Yes there will always be real nutters but. In general. The people who commit crimes are part of our society. They aren't a different species. They aren't monsters.

Plenty of people (men) who do stuff like CSA, DV, etc etc are 'upstanding' family men.

The idea that men who do bad things to women and children (and other men)- and I'm talking about sex offences. Come from all walks of life. And the stuff that women and girls get when out and about from strangers is so common that while it's a minority of men it can't be a tiny minority. And it's well known that these men escalate.

Dunno. The fact that around the world and through history ordinary people are capable of committing terrible atrocities is similar. Seeing them as rare monsters is appealing but doesn't actually help.

None of us can control the actions of another person, we are only responsible for our selves. Whilst it would be ideal if we could stop anybody commiting any sort of crime, we know that will never happen. So all you can do is reduce the risk to yourself. You don't leave your doors unlocked at night because "people should know not to rob houses". If you wouldn't risk your belongings then don't risk yourself.
Most men do know not to attack women, but there will always be a few that slip through the net. So protect yourself or risk being a victim, thatsbthe choice we are faced with. Its shit but that's life.

I am incredulous at some of the comments here.

Men shouldn’t rape women. Absolutely! The absolute majority wouldn’t even have a passing thought about it! Sending out info sheets on “how to avoid rape” telling men not to do it... well, of course. A rapist isn’t going to read it and say “oh I never thought of it that way! My bad” then put his rapey penis away.

A murderer won’t look at a lone woman and say “oh she thinks she has every right to walk alone. Best not stab her to death!”

The police as a whole are a great bunch of everyday folks who do not rape or murder people. One in tons of thousands does not taint them all.

If a murderer/rapist is in the loose then for gods sake take precautions!!! No one has the right to do anything to you but an indignant or “stop victim blaming” attitude won’t stop a knife from stabbing you! Make yourself as safe as you can! Why wouldn’t you?!

No one deserves their homes burgled. Bet you all lock your doors though?!
Not locking your door doesn’t mean you “deserve it”.
Locking your door doesn’t make you weak.
Target hardening is a thing. Try and keep out those chancing bastards that want your stuff!

Take precautions where you can and look after yourself and others. Report suspicious behaviour and take evasive action if you thing you are being followed.

It isn’t rocket science and it isn’t victim blaming. It is so wrong that anyone hurts anyone else but they do. Fact.

@NiceGerbil

Seeing them as rare monsters is appealing but doesn't actually help

Murderers are monsters. They are aberrations. Otherwise we'd all know a few, wouldn't we, and Sarah Everard's story wouldn't be shocking because it would be an every day occurrence. Why on earth you think it's appealing to think that we have monsters amongst us is beyond me.

I never said they didn't come from all walks of life.

I never mentioned CSA or DV. Unless you think that murder is the same as CSA or DV, I'm not sure why you did.

The fact that around the world and through history ordinary people are capable of committing terrible atrocities is similar

You're neglecting to notice the sheer weight of numbers of people who haven't committed atrocities. That's what makes murderers rare monsters.

@NiceGerbil
I completely agree. It seems to comfort people to distance themselves (& the men in their lives) from these ‘monsters’ as if they’re a completely different species & therefore there’s nothing anyone can do about it. The idea of misogynistic attitudes & ‘low-level’ deviant sexual behaviour & assaults being on a continuum & a stepping stone towards rape & murder seems to be difficult for some people (both male & female) to comprehend & acknowledge. Once you accept this view, the onus is on society to do something about it (eg. tougher sentencing for starter offences, calling out other men for sexual ‘banter’ & harassment etc).

MarchingOnTogether

Interested to know what precautions women and girls should take?

Can you share? You've said you wouldn't go out with your house unlocked which is true I wouldn't.

What should female people be doing to reduce the risk of being sexually harassed/ assaulted/ raped/ kidnapped/ murdered while out and about?

Eckhart 2 to 3 women a week are killed by men they have or have been involved with, or know.

That's a lot of monsters then.

The idea of misogynistic attitudes & ‘low-level’ deviant sexual behaviour & assaults being on a continuum & a stepping stone towards rape & murder seems to be difficult for some people (both male & female) to comprehend & acknowledge

It is a continuum. With extremities, like all continuums. Monster is at the far end. The fact that there are aberrations from the norm doesn't mean there's no continuum. And yes, it is difficult to comprehend and acknowledge that the men we know and love are just like murderers. 'Some people' seem to have trouble getting their heads round that.

"If you wouldn't risk your belongings then don't risk yourself."
Some of us dont have a choice.
I need to get home after an evening shift.
Its dark.
I have to walk either to bus stop or multi storey car park.
So I'm at the mercy basically.
Because I can't keep myself safe.
Because as a single mother I need to work shitty shifts that finish late at night.
I feel helpless and furious.
When I'm walking to that car park I feel fearful. It crosses my mind that I might not make it home.
Im sick of living like this.

Life is risk, and going out in the street when and where it suits me is a risk I'm happy to take. It's gone wrong a few times, but another bloke got him off me.

ERFFER and what pisses me off is that when something like this happens you get people saying it's rare a one off you can't assess risk properly.

But at the same time we are given messages from very young that essentially we are prey and need to do xyz to protect ourselves.

So which is it?

Ignore the risk and when something happens well. She was alone after dark.

Heed the risk and some will say it's an over reaction.

We are given conflicting messages all the time with the end result that essentially whatever we do will be wrong somehow.

I remember years ago getting an email from a bloke I had worked with, with useful advice for women.

Stuff like.

Carry an umbrella.
Rapists don't like short hair.
Um.
There were about 30 things! I'm sure many of you have seen similar lists.

I emailed him back saying please don't forward me this stuff and he said he was trying to help...

We are fed this stuff all the time. And many have multiple experiences of creepy men.

And then we're told don't be paranoid. And god forbid you say that any man could be dodgy and you can't tell which because that is mean to men

I’m just going to leave this here

@NiceGerbil

Eckhart 2 to 3 women a week are killed by men they have or have been involved with, or know.

That's a lot of monsters then.

But no-one is wanting to hold a vigil for those women. This story is only all over the news for days, because this was a murder , of a young woman by a stranger.

It's extremely rare for that to happen. Yet people are talking as if murder by a stranger was a regular thing, and that all men should be curfewed to stop it happening again. It's quite a bizarrely unreasonable response to a very rare event.

Sadly murder by a spouse or relative in one's own home is not such a rare event. And a curfew of men would massively increase the incidence of that.

I agree that society and the press are skewed in which victims they focus on.

For many women I think this is a last straw kind of moment.

Similar to other last straw moments that have happened around the world.