Police advising women not to walk alone at night

[Bubbinsmakesthree]

I’ve seen a lot of friends outraged at the Met police locally advising women not to walk alone at night in the days following the disappearance of Sarah Everard. I’ve seen a posts along the lines of ‘how about telling men not to attack women instead?’

I absolutely agree with the wider point that we should be asking the question “how do we make it safe for women?” not “how do women stay out of danger?”

But in this case, was the police’s advice not just the equivalent of advising people to stay out of the water following a shark attack?

I’m so upset and angry about Sarah Everard but I cannot get incensed about the police advising women to take precautions when an unknown attacker may have still been in the area.

so agree muncher, my husband two sons in law and two grandsons are lovely and would never hurt anyone, its just so unfair to punish the majority for the minority

I agree when I moved to an area living alone in my first week a woman got raped at lunchtime at the underpass at my local station it was in Surrey . So I avoided that station and walked further to the larger station , got off a stop early bizarre. I wanted to go jogging in the nearby park priory grounds of a school and it turned out a female dogwalker had been assaulted very early in the morning there . So I jogged somewhere else in my lunch hour . Its just really frustrating that the reality is you have to own your space like men do or stay at home. Its how assaults are handled there isn’t enough enforcement . Its not taken seriously enough by law enforcement or men in general because they simply can’t relate to the harassment on a constant all our lives. Personally from work to Uni the men were in power and put their hands in the cookie jar. There would be casting couches and all kinds of abuses of power and just laughter if you reported indecent exposure. So how is this helping the correct behaviours .

The curfew for men is not a serious suggestion, it's to make people think.

The idea that it's not ok for men to all have to modify their behaviour because some (must be a fairly large minority) are sex offenders (most at the lower end of the scale)

But it is common sense for ALL women and girls to take precautions, view themselves as like cars and lock... Something... Not go out alone after dark (what about coming home from work in the winter, shift work).. and essentially accept that all women are potential prey and behave accordingly

It's massively hypocritical.

It's against men's human rights to have their freedom curtailed.

Women and girls should voluntarily curtail their freedom and if they don't and something happens well it's a lesson to all the other women and girls to take more 'care' of themselves...

So many women on here are saying nothing can be done but the different levels of male sexual violence around the world show that to be false.

I think maybe for a lot of women it's just easier to say this is our lot. Than accept that men aren't either good or monsters, and curtailing your freedom will protect you from the latter.

@NiceGerbil

The curfew for men is not a serious suggestion, it's to make people think.

The idea that it's not ok for men to all have to modify their behaviour because some (must be a fairly large minority) are sex offenders (most at the lower end of the scale)

But it is common sense for ALL women and girls to take precautions, view themselves as like cars and lock... Something... Not go out alone after dark (what about coming home from work in the winter, shift work).. and essentially accept that all women are potential prey and behave accordingly

It's massively hypocritical.

It's against men's human rights to have their freedom curtailed.

Women and girls should voluntarily curtail their freedom and if they don't and something happens well it's a lesson to all the other women and girls to take more 'care' of themselves...

So many women on here are saying nothing can be done but the different levels of male sexual violence around the world show that to be false.

I think maybe for a lot of women it's just easier to say this is our lot. Than accept that men aren't either good or monsters, and curtailing your freedom will protect you from the latter.

But there have been lots of posts on social media from men who are saying they do modify their behaviour to try and make women feel better, is crossing roads or hesitating or changing route.

Why are we ignoring this? Do they not fit the narrative?

@Darlingx

Also the two sisters during lockdown who were murdered Nicole Smallman and Bibaa Henry in the park the police took selfies in front of their corpses and other inappropriate photos of their bodies and shared them in a whatsapp group . I think there are some serious attitudes towards woman and ethnic minorities that need to be addressed . They also let someone who had a charge for indecent exposure back to work in the role of protection officer I mean the irony of this is horrendous

Exactly.

Yet when faced with women wanting to hold a distanced vigil for one of the women the Met police utterly failed, that same police force becomes heavy handed in their efforts to stop it. 'No blanket ban', but they target this.

Scum. I have no respect for the police after this. None.

@FleurPower123

So, only POC are in gangs? Or commit violent crime?
I think you need to try again with your assumptions here ...oy vey

Also I have to say I found a response to one of my posts very callous.

'07:27Mmn65412
Those with training are less likely to freeze and most people with disabilities can still learn martial arts.

Yes men are stronger but strength isn’t the only issue - it’s about knowing techniques to break away and to incapacitate your attacker. Not enough women can defend themselves physically.'

In response to a long post of mine but the relevant thing I said was this

'If some women fight back better then men who want to attack will simply seek out more vulnerable victims. And/or learn how to counter those defences.'

I had mentioned in my longer post that girls and women with learning disabilities are at much higher risk than the general population of being sexually abused.

I also mentioned my own background- when I was young- 5'3, 7 stone, and with a physical disability. The idea that I'd be able to use some nifty martial arts on a grown man and get away (erm.. very slowly!).

Is a nice idea and makes the poster feel like. I dunno. If only women and girls took the effort to train, learned this stuff, it would be great. But they don't so...

I'd like to know more about this idea that even women with physical disabilities can learn martial arts (where? I've looked!) and will soon be able to do whatever to get away from a man who is intent on harming her.

And what of the point that men will just seek out the more vulnerable? The younger and older girls and women. The ones who gave disabilities which already put them at higher risk?

I just feel it's so glib.

Men know how to choose victims. Trying to make it not you is perfectly fine. But it just means he attacks someone else. The overall problem is not addressed at all, just moved.

Rooty I can't see what your response has to do with what I said TBH.

No one has said that all men are predators or horrible.

@cavalier

We live near a Heath and the amount of women that walk their dogs alone .. and walk up a lane near us alone ... it makes me shudder ... I just can’t understand it ...

So what are single women who own dogs supposed to do? Not walk them?

Ex Met officer on Channel 4 news just said indecent exposure isnt serious in the grand scheme of things what with the other things they have to deal with and the public just dont understand.

@eckhart as I said above "but it shouldn't just be the same "women stay at home response".

@rootyT00t maybe I'm not expressing myself clearly enough as people are misinterpreting my posts, or perhaps I'm not being heard. I'm not talking about doing it, I'm talking about talking about it. Everyone is jumping on here saying how can you put a curfew on men. It's not right, you can't ask thousands of innocent men to stay at home. I'm not asking them to stay at home but can't you see the irony?

I would have thought that a fucking MET POLICE OFFICER committing the offence of indecent exposure, especially when he was on an elite team, routinely armed, was pretty bloody serious.

Perhaps, at the retrospective, when they look at what was done well, and what could be done better, they might, with 20/20 think that this could be so?

The damage to police reputation and trust is unquantifiable.

@rootyT00t there have been grown men throwing their toys out of the pram over this all over social media

Indecent exposure is a gateway crime.
They must know that.
Too busy policing Twitter spats and thoughtcrimes to do the job properly.

@Closetbeanmuncher

cue huge numbers of men identifying as women so they can carry tasers🙄

As far as I'm aware you can't change your biological sex on a birth certificate. If you identify as a parrot your biological sex is still male/female on that..

I would rather know if a 6.5 ft 20 stone man wanted to attack me I would be able to defend myself... If that means me carrying a taser or paper spray I'm willing to go there.

I don't think the UK government have the resources to enforce a curfew, but I do agree something needs to be done to in regards to the violent porn saturating the internet, and higher sentencing for offenders.

Men will never stop behaving like this until we rid ourselves of toxic masculinity culture unfortunately.

You don't have to change your biological sex on your birth certificate.

You don't even need to get a GRC, or have surgery, or take hormones - all a man has to do is say "I am a woman. I feel like a woman. And because I feel like a woman, even though I have fully functioning male genitalia, then I have the right to access women's safe spaces and you have to let me in. If you don't, and try to say those spaces are SEX segregated and not GENDER segregated, and therefore you don't have to let me in, then you are nothing but a transphobic bigot and you are literally killing me.

"And by the way - I'm also a lesbian, and if other, "cis"*, lesbians refuse to have sex with me, they are transphobic bigots, too, and that is a hate crime and I can report them to the police who will interview them about it even though there is actually no offence that has been committed."

That is all that is necessary for a man to claim he is a woman. This is the beauty of self-ID.

For purposes of illustration. There is no such thing as cis*

@ViciousJackdaw

Posted too soon...I can't get offended either. Of course women should feel free to go where they want, when they want. If there is a psychopath at large though, it makes sense to be as careful as you can.

Couldn’t agree more. Sounds like very sensible advice.

@LucilleTheVampireBat

It isn't acceptable for this to be the message. Not at all. It shouldn't even be considered.

How does it deal with the issue of male violence? It doesn't. It makes it my problem and my responsibility to avoid it. If I don't, well, I was warned eh?

What about women who have no choice? Who work shifts, who can't afford a taxi home and the buses stop at 11. Is it tough tits? The good girls who obeyed didn't get raped so she's collateral damage?

Makes me rage that in the year 2021 the solution to male violence is to tell women to change their behaviour.

This 100 times over.

Is this true or just speculation as I cannot find anything that states he may have used “covid law” anywhere.

Sarah had every right to walk wherever she wanted to without fear.
The reporting really winds me up “walking alone....”
Press would never comment on a man walking alone.

My husband and I had a huge debate yesterday about a curfew for men of 6pm. He said it was ridiculous, I disagreed, we chatted and he finally realised how ridiculous it is to blame women, we have two daughters and two sons and he gets it.
Yey! Good husband..

Sending huge amounts of love into the universe to help heal anyone affected by this and especially to Sarah’s family, friends and colleagues.

I just want to see some serious convictions for crimes against women. I want to see some deterrents for the kind of behaviours like indecent exposure and for it to be taken very seriously . I want men to call out bad behaviours when they see them. We need to stop having this low standard of enforcement for women be it domestic, stalking , harassment , upskirting etc sadly . All those drama series with women brutalised for entertainment I mean what are we cruxified for being the ones that carry life ? The fairer sex ? I am sick of advertising shrinking us down thats why we can’t own the space no curfew is going to help that . I want education where its needed but I don’t want curfews for anyone. I actually think its not as safe because there are not as many men around the good ones who can be heroic because they have businesses to run and want their area to be safe . We need to all be in this together. We actually need to get this across that its just not acceptable. Sarah was brightly dressed in trainers wearing a mask and this helped her get spotted on CcTV and the fact her face was concealed her hair covered by a hat that she made it across a common in darkness all the crutches used to hold up the notion that an attack is on us our decisions, our clothes, our appearance our motives its not it’s because he was indecently exposing himself and when it was reported nothing was done it sadly is the precurser to worse acts and needs to be taken seriously

I bet the same ones who moan about women not getting taxis home are also the ones who refuse to accept there is a gender pay gap.
Its because of this and minimum wage jobs ( a lot of which are done by women that they cant afford bloody taxis.

@RootyT00t

" PinkPanther27

<strong>*@eckhart</strong>*
No I don't but turning the focus onto men and talking about a curfew for men is already causing an outrage and having men protest about "it's my right to ....." .

So it's much more likely to make them realise that this is the shit we have to put up with. Once some of the men in power have been left to squirm for a few days about having a potential curfew put on them then they're more likely to realise that this is our reality and start to take VAWG more seriously. Only then will they be ready to have a grown up discussion about managing men's behaviour and their role in this."

No it isn't. What a load of absolute nonsense.

Thanks for completely dismissing my opinion.
How would you know this is "absolute nonsense" if we haven't even tried? Men in power aren't jumping up and down about the numbers of women being murdered by men each day so yeah we need to do something that makes them feel uncomfortable and under scrutiny.
We shouldn't just be accepting this and saying that would never work, we need to be shouting this from the rooftops until things change.

[quote PinkPanther27]@RootyT00t

" PinkPanther27

<strong>*</strong>@eckhart<strong>*</strong>
No I don't but turning the focus onto men and talking about a curfew for men is already causing an outrage and having men protest about "it's my right to ....." .

So it's much more likely to make them realise that this is the shit we have to put up with. Once some of the men in power have been left to squirm for a few days about having a potential curfew put on them then they're more likely to realise that this is our reality and start to take VAWG more seriously. Only then will they be ready to have a grown up discussion about managing men's behaviour and their role in this."

No it isn't. What a load of absolute nonsense.

Thanks for completely dismissing my opinion.
How would you know this is "absolute nonsense" if we haven't even tried? Men in power aren't jumping up and down about the numbers of women being murdered by men each day so yeah we need to do something that makes them feel uncomfortable and under scrutiny.
We shouldn't just be accepting this and saying that would never work, we need to be shouting this from the rooftops until things change.[/quote]
I'm not dismissing your opinion. I'm dismissing the concept.

Do you think if we lock men up they will be like aw yeah you're right let's be better human beings?

Josie of course they know it's a gateway crime. Of course they know that these men escalate.

'15MercyBooth

Ex Met officer on Channel 4 news just said indecent exposure isnt serious in the grand scheme of things what with the other things they have to deal with and the public just dont understand.'

You see. This.

A woman has been murdered. Turns out the suspect was reported for indecent exposure a few days before.

And some ex copper gets wheeled out to say that.

I mean come on. The met have handed this over to the IPCC. Why are the media getting a bloke on to say oh well I mean indecent exposure. Not very serious.

What's the message?

It's illegal...

Women will hear that and have their view confirmed. The view of many anyway.

That there's no point in reporting this stuff because the police aren't interested.

Yes yes thank you Mr ex policeman for reminding us not to bother reporting this stuff because the police don't care.

Why do the media do this, is my other question?

IF the authorities and society really cared about reducing this they could.

Encourage women to report.
Investigate properly.
Make the effort to link to other reports- we have computerised records now don't we?
Understand it's important as these men escalate and if you get them early, it may well prevent serious harm later.

Etc etc.

But nooooo.

'indecent exposure isnt serious in the grand scheme of things'

Yep ta thanks.

And serious to WHO exactly?

It's not serious for a 12 yo girl to be masturbated at on her way home from school?

It's not serious for (as happened to me) a man to wank at you on a lateish tube when there was no one else in the carriage, or either of the ones adjourned, heading for the last stop that takes 4 mins and women have been assaulted in that time on that bit of line.

But it's good news Mr ex copper. I know how it works. I did report and remember saying. I mean I'm ok I know it's that bad. I don't want to waste your time. I've just heard that these men can escalate and also I wouldn't want it to happen to a schoolgirl.

Guess what they did?

Yep. Nothing.

I think that's the only time I reported anything.

We know, don't we, that somehow we're not really supposed to. Deal with it yourself. It's not that bad. Don't make a fuss etc.

When I got off the tube I glared at him and said 'you're pathetic' which I suppose was something!