Police advising women not to walk alone at night

[Bubbinsmakesthree]

I’ve seen a lot of friends outraged at the Met police locally advising women not to walk alone at night in the days following the disappearance of Sarah Everard. I’ve seen a posts along the lines of ‘how about telling men not to attack women instead?’

I absolutely agree with the wider point that we should be asking the question “how do we make it safe for women?” not “how do women stay out of danger?”

But in this case, was the police’s advice not just the equivalent of advising people to stay out of the water following a shark attack?

I’m so upset and angry about Sarah Everard but I cannot get incensed about the police advising women to take precautions when an unknown attacker may have still been in the area.

@Catpuke

Not all male rapists and murderers are psychopaths though.

That's actually more worrying - not less.

Violence and entitlement seem to be intrinsic to the male psyche.

@NiceGerbil an analogy that applies to something else in the same way that it applies to this is not the same as suggesting they are in and of themselves, the same. It makes no difference that one is a lot worse than the other, the point is unchanged. So it’s not correct to say ‘we are comparing cars to women’s bodies’ and actually in a debate like this it’s unhelpful. Boiled down the message is - sometimes it might be necessary to take steps to prevent bad things happening. Some bad things are worse than others.

It would be brilliant if the stance was no men out after 8pm until perpetrator is caught.

So, it's now the police response to blame women when they are out walking alone in the dark and they get murdered.

This could very quickly turn to don't leave the house at all 😡😡

And any women who takes the risk of daring to leave the house probably deserves everything she gets, in the eyes of the police 😡😡

FFS

There is another thread at the moment from a poster whose teenage DD is being harassed at work.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4189563-DD-being-harassed-by-man-on-apprenticeship?msgid=105477182

This is the sort of sh*t we have all had to out up with, and our DDs are still having to go through.

It's the sort of "low-grade" harassment which a bloke can laugh of as a "joke", or claim that she "led him on" etc. The sort when, if the girl/woman reports it, people often think she's a troublemaker - why doesn't she just ignore him etc?

But it's distressing, demeaning and can be downright frightening. No-one should have to put up with it. Why should she? Why should men like this get away with their sleazy behaviour?

And to whoever upthread who said that the easy availability of porn (especially hardcore stuff) is fuelling this horrible behaviour - you are right! It is. It makes women into sexual commodities and nothing more.

1st monkey

There are many circumstances where a women might have no choice but to walk alone

It gets dark before many women finish work

Is it their own fault if they get murdered waking to their car, to the bus stop, or in my case simply walking home???

Should we all give up our jobs, and barricade ourselves in the
House at 5pm?.

It's dark when I
Take and pick up DD from brownies
It's dark when I go swimming
It's dark when I take other DD to Rangers
It's dark when I take the dog a walk

According to the police, should I stop doing these things???

I lived for over 40 years near Wandsworth and Clapham Commons and went to school in Clapham Park. My dm hated me walking my dogs alone early morning on Wimbledon Common. There was always a notorious area where people were attacked on Clapham Common, including boys and men. I avoided using Clapham South tube if I had to walk home through Clapham Common Westside in the dark

It's long past time that this is addressed as it's not a new issue. We never walked alone and my route to my dsis home was the one Sarah walked except I would have left the South Circular at Poynders Rd going on to Clapham Park opposite my old school. Many of the singles who live in the area won't keep cars as there's nowhere to park. If my dsis can't drive home from social occasions it's a cab.

@Haspotential

I think some of you think that we live in a Utopian society where men are not a danger to women. They are! Just accept it. It has been the same for thousands of years. You absolutely need to learn, as a woman, how to protect yourself mentally and physically. Men are not going to change.

You've said this repeatly in various forms.

This is pretty much what the entire thread is about. The problem is men. Don't expect them to change. NAMALT but modify your behaviour because all boys will be boys so can't be expected modify theirs.

If not all men are like that (and according to some of this thread it's just 0.1% who are) why do women need to protect themselves?

If not all men are like that (and according to some of this thread it's just 0.1% who are) why do women need to protect themselves?

Exactly.

And do forget that evergreen phrase to attack women "oh well I feel sorry for you that the men in your life are so awful, my own perfect specimens of manhood would never do that". Usually spouted by the same women excusing their boys' bad behaviour at nursery, school, teenage escapades into manhood.

Yes it is all men. I know many who try hard to be good allies but every man we know has been raised in a culture of sexism and a culture which controls' womens' freedoms and rights as the default solution to male behaviour.

We live in a time of global femicide. In the UK sexual assault and rape are punishment free crimes. And we still have the "lie back and think of England" apologists bleating on.

The punishment for these crimes need to be higher. Sadly many rape cases don’t even make it to court due to lack of evidence and for this reason many woman don’t bother to report sexual assault.

I feel there should be more cctv, each street should have a camera and each foot path, these crimes are less likely to happen if people are less likely to get away with it?

I don’t think men should be put in a curfew and the idea of a 6pm curfew is just crazy, why should all men have to stay in just because 1% can’t control themselves?

It’s no good people just saying “woman should be safe to walk alone in 2021” and that “women shouldn’t have to change their behaviour” because all though that is true we can not change the fact that some men will always be predators, there will always be danger. How ever much you educate boys/men there will always be rapists, abusers and murderers.

I live in a boring small town where barely anything happens. A woman was out walking a couple of months ago at 9 am when a man tried to sexually assault her. She luckily managed to break free and run. That was in the morning, in broad daylight. I was assaulted by an ex also in the morning in broad daylight with numerous witnesses who did fuck all.

It doesn’t only happen to women who dare to walk alone at night, it can happen at any time. Sarah didn’t do anything wrong and it’s once again an example of the onus being placed on women to stop men attacking us.

We don’t need a curfew, we need men to stop raping and murdering us.

I think the suggestion of a curfew for men at 6 pm isn't a literal proposal. But the reaction to the suggestion does highlight the fact that the idea that men should modify their behaviour because of the behaviour of 'a a few' is deemed insane and ridiculous. Whereas women having to (and often actively) modifying their behaviour, because of a 'few' men, is considered acceptable and sensible.

After all, a 9 pm curfew would be more reasonable.

You have to keep yourself safe. Yes, there shouldn't be rapists and murdered in the world. But we don't live in a fairytale land, there will always be dangers. And you have to do what you can to protect yourself. It's like not locking your front door because there shouldn't be burglars.

Perhaps women should all receive arms training and be allowing to carry a gun? Either that or trained protection dogs.

I think a curfew would be a better solution.

We don’t need a curfew, we need men to stop raping and murdering us.

Well yes, but that's how it will be solved because that's the problem. what need to happen it that it because the norm for men to say to other men and boys that treating woman like they are objects and playthings is wrong.

Everyman needs to start giving women the same respect they give other men. So if a man would catcall, touch or harass another man then they shouldn't do so to a woman

And its nothing to do with their higher sex drive and not being able to help themselves. Why don't gay men harassing, touching and catcall other men?

@Svrider

There are many reasons why people may have to walk alone, of course they are never at fault if they become a victim of a crime. That was not what i was trying to suggest at all.

I don't believe there is any suggestion at all that if you leave your house after dark you deserve whatever happens to you.

Of course there should be tougher sentencing, of course it should be easier to report, investigate and convict violent (all?) crime. Of course there should be more significant deterrants for criminals. That's not upto the police though. They also have to follow the rules they are given in terms of what and how they investigate. They don't even decide if and when they can charge a suspect, that decision is made by the CPS. They don't get a say in convictions or sentencing. All they can do for the wider public is investigate what they can and advise us on how to try to avoid becoming a victim. We have the choice to accept or ignore that advice.

But the fact is that the people who commit these horrific acts aren't following the rules. They don't follow laws or societal norms. They don't respond to public opinion. So all the discussion, debate and ideas are great, but the changes need to happen much further up the chain.

I find the posters commenting that's it's just a small percentage of men who commit these offences are missing the point. It's just part of the bigger issue of the insidious threat of male violence that permeates women's lives. The 'banter', revenge porn, cat calling, flashing, upskirting. The pressure on teenage girls to be sexual active for fear for being dubbed frigid. The porn that reduces women to commodities. It's living in a culture that doesn't expect men to be better, do better. A legal system which fails victims of rape and abuse. Of course it's not all men, but it is a male problem. Yet it's women who innately understand this threat and have to take measures to protect themselves from it.

As a teen I was perved over and leered at while I worked in a service job and could do nothing but smile through it and wait for them to leave. I've had my boobs grabbed and hands put up my skirt while in a club. I was flashed while in a school uniform walking to school. Been called stuck up when I didn't reciprocate unsolicited attention. Been sent dick pics from a private number.

I am one of the lucky ones. The men in my life now are wonderful. But that doesn't mean there isn't a much wider problem of male violence, male threat and toxic masculinity.

Scuba I agree. Women seem unable to accept that men are a problem. Until we accept that, nothing will change. It is far far higher than 1% who are cunts in my experience.

@NeedToKnow101

But if a woman wants to do porn/sex work, isnt that her choice to make?

cue huge numbers of men identifying as women so they can carry tasers🙄

As far as I'm aware you can't change your biological sex on a birth certificate. If you identify as a parrot your biological sex is still male/female on that..

I would rather know if a 6.5 ft 20 stone man wanted to attack me I would be able to defend myself... If that means me carrying a taser or paper spray I'm willing to go there.

I don't think the UK government have the resources to enforce a curfew, but I do agree something needs to be done to in regards to the violent porn saturating the internet, and higher sentencing for offenders.

Men will never stop behaving like this until we rid ourselves of toxic masculinity culture unfortunately.

Another problem with advising women to moderate their own behaviour as a way to stop male violence is that, it assumes if you remove the women from the equation the men who are violent against them will stop. However - if you look at any environment where there are no women (e.g. male prisons, heavily segregated societies etc) there is still a ton of sexual violence - but instead of the male rapists attacking women, they attack other men instead. Rape is one of the main fears a lot of men have about going to prison - but no-one tells them to stop being silly "NAMALT", because deep down they know enough men are to be a threat to them (in the absence of anyone weaker to take it on their behalf). Because the problem has never been women's vulnerabilty or attractiveness. It has always been men's violence.

That doesnt mean I wouldnt advise another woman to be careful/take preccautions. But we need to be honest that that is something that can protect individuals but wont bring the overall rate of violence against women down at all. Additionally - if you want to bring class and other issues into it, some women will not be in a position to take those preccautions (not able to afford taxis everywhere, work unsociable hours, work in less safe environements etc)

I do also think that Tasers/Pepper spray/guns are unlikely to be the answer. Normally by the time someone elses behaviour has gotten to the point where you would be justified in using it, it is too late anyway. (You couldnt spin round and spray a man in the face just for walking behind you. They might not be doing anything wrong. But by the time they have grabbed you it is too late as you would both be coughing and blind). Likewise, it isnt socially acceptable to knee creepy joe the office perv in the balls if he gets too close to you at the office party. But it SHOULD be a matter of course that everyone else tells him to back the F off.

So really, any defence should emphasize maintaining space/physical distance from people who make you feel uncomfortable. And everyone needs to accept that its reasonable for women to do this and not argue NAMALT. And everyone else should intervene early on as well if they see low level harrasment.

if you look at any environment where there are no women (e.g. male prisons, heavily segregated societies etc) there is still a ton of sexual violence - but instead of the male rapists attacking women, they attack other men instead. Rape is one of the main fears a lot of men have about going to prison - but no-one tells them to stop being silly "NAMALT", because deep down they know enough men are to be a threat to them (in the absence of anyone weaker to take it on their behalf). Because the problem has never been women's vulnerabilty or attractiveness. It has always been men's violence

great points and when you think about it like that it's in men's interests that there are women (i.e. weaker people to take it on their behalf) if women were no longer easy targets for mens anger and violence it would be a lot worse for the men
As if we just exist to absorb men's anger and violence 😟😳

This is a tragic incident, and the Met have many questions to answer if they have ignored this behaviour of one of their men .I think advice not to walk home alone late at night for women is just common sense surely?Obviously women should be able to do as they please .Sadly we live in the real world, and have to accept if we wish to stay safe we would be better off in a taxi or Bus/Tube.My own DD was attacked with her friend ,and we were thankful that a passing Taxi driver rescued them .This was after a scuffle where she was slapped and punched by a 6ft 20 stone guy! We always collected her and still do ,but on that night she was out with a male friend and they were set upon by a gang of thugs! Thankfully she has recovered and nothing worse happened .