To think my DH’s employer doesn’t get to dictate my career?

[ClearMountain]

DH works in web design which doesn’t necessarily require formal qualifications as long as you have good skills. I’ve previously worked in min wage hospitality and as we all know that’s gone down the toilet. So DH had the bright idea that he could teach me some of his skills and I could start freelancing from home. It seemed like a good idea because we can’t afford for me to do a degree like DH did.

For most of the past year, when I haven’t been homeschooling I’ve been studying. DH has been directing me to good tutorials and books, checking my work, and teaching me personally on a weekend. I’m nowhere near his level but I’m ready for some simple freelance projects. I’m currently attending a small business accounting course online and working with a business adviser that’s funded by a local council scheme. Great stuff, feeling positive about my future.

DH’s employer sometimes gets asked to do bits of work that are too small for them to bother with, so they redirect the client to a trusted freelancer. I asked could I be on that list? DH said he’d ask his employer but he thought it would be ok because his colleague’s Ian’s wife is on the freelance list.

DH’s employer said no. Ian’s wife is on the freelance list, but Ian works in accounting so he’s not doing the same work as his wife does, therefore there’s no conflict of interest. But DH works in web design so there’s a conflict of interest between his job and my small business. Fair enough, I guess I can’t be on the list.

This morning the employer has pulled DH into the office and said not only am I not allowed to be on the freelance list, I’m also not allowed to run my own small business at all. He feels that there’s no way DH will have absolutely nothing to do with my business - he’s bound to help me out a bit on a weekend if I’m busy, or advise me on an evening if I get stuck on a bit of coding, or take a day’s holiday and help me with a big project. Which means that instead of DH giving his employer 110% as he currently does, he’ll end up only giving 100% and giving me the other 10%. And that’s not good enough. And god forbid if I was successful and got loads of projects, DH might actually quit his job to work with me and expand my business, and that is unacceptable.

DH said I don’t think you can dictate what I do outside of work hours and you certainly can’t dictate what my wife does? The employer said if your wife goes ahead with starting this business I’ll sack you!

So we are in a shitty position now because we need DH’s salary and can’t afford for him to get sacked. But I’ve put a huge amount of work into starting a small business for myself and I’m absolutely devastated because someone I’ve never even met has just said Nope, you’re not allowed. Surely this can’t be legal?

@Siepie

Have you got any freelance experience from other businesses in this field?

Does DH's employer normally put people with no experience on their freelancer's list, or do they only list people with a portfolio of previous work?

Your DH asking to put you on the freelance list, instead of you applying through the normal channels and demonstrating your prior experience, does suggest your personal relationship is affecting his professional behaviour.

Absolutely agree

OP have you thought about going on a coding boot camp / doing pro bono projects to prove that you can hold your own?with your skill level the company are quite right that you’re likely to seek his help - you need to clearly distinguish yourself from him.
Of course as I mentioned earlier you could just lie and carry on ... but if you’re looking for clients from the same pool word might get around... so not a good ideab

Aren't you the poster who wanted to set up as a freelance web designer despite having no experience whatsoever? And you wanted your DH to spend his free time teaching you?

Hi OP, no real advice on the employer but just wanted to say how amazing that in a year you've upskilled to the point you can take on some freelance work already! Well done and hope you get to enjoy the fruits of your labour soon - really impressive!

@GreenlandTheMovie

Restraint of trade clauses are only enforcable if they are sufficiently limited in duration, extent and geographically. People cannot be excluded from earning a living for ever more. Neither can they be used to restrict the human right to a family life or to privacy.

That’s not strictly true. Post termination restrictive covenants relating to non competition have a requirement to be reasonable and only in place to protect an employers legitimate business interests - however there isn’t such a rule applied to current employees who are still working under an employment contract. It is perfectly lawful to ban employees from working elsewhere during the employment relationship.

OP, you do really need legal advice. This situation is legally complex and probably beyond the remit of ACAS, as their staff are not legally qualified and essentially advise based on a script.

The employer cannot ban you from running a business that your DH has no interest or involvement in, but they could potentially take action against your DH if they reasonably believe that he is working in competition (either directly or indirectly). That position could be further affirmed by the contract if such a clause is included. The difficulty is that he could be fairly dismissed if the employer has a genuine belief that he is guilty (even if he has done nothing wrong) although they would have to have some reasonable evidence to support that view. That leaves you in a position of having to bring an unfair dismissal claim which isn’t exactly desirable, particularly if you don’t have the strongest case (which is impossible to say without seeing the contract and/or how the company choose to deal with the situation).

I agree with @PositiveNegative here.

However they absolutely cannot complain that your DH will be shouldering further childcare responsibility due to you having a business - that’s madness!

I can see the employers point. He has taught you, he asked for you to be on their freelancer list, there is certainly a blurred line between what you will do and what he will do to support you.

I cannot imagine there is a clause in his contract regarding what work a spouse carried out. However you should be aware of the “some other significant reason” for fair dismissal. Possibly the concern about conflict of interest, poaching clients, competing for business, would be sufficient for them to claim SOSR for dismissal.

Do you have access to legal advice through the council scheme? I've assisted with a local scheme that has access to pro bono advice from a law firm that supports the scheme?
Business advisor may also be able to assist - depends on his/her skillset.

MrsPinkCock @GreenlandTheMovie*

Restraint of trade clauses are only enforcable if they are sufficiently limited in duration, extent and geographically. People cannot be excluded from earning a living for ever more. Neither can they be used to restrict the human right to a family life or to privacy.

That’s not strictly true. Post termination restrictive covenants relating to non competition have a requirement to be reasonable and only in place to protect an employers legitimate business interests - however there isn’t such a rule applied to current employees who are still working under an employment contract. It is perfectly lawful to ban employees from working elsewhere during the employment relationship.*

Yes, absolutely correct to point that out. I was trying to keep things simple but your distinction is of course correct and I agree.

Clew to me that they don’t rate your husband and want him out

Clear

@ClearMountain

I'm guessing that it's a small company that your husband works for if they're so concerned about this. No they are a massive company with multiple offices. I’m in no way a competitor. In fact they keep a list of freelancers to direct clients to when they request a small project that’s not worth their time. I think their main worry is that they’ll no longer be getting 110% from DH and in the long run he might have a family business that could allow him to escape from working for them.

Why on earth don't the two of you go out on your own?

I can't believe it would take him that long to get up and running

Say no more about it until you are up and running otherwise they may put a new contract in front of him with those T & Cs.

That’s ridiculous my husband is at a smaller accountancy firm than me. We might chat technical every now and then but not client specific. I’m pretty sure what they are trying to do is illegal.

I'm guessing that it's a small company that your husband works for if they're so concerned about this.
No they are a massive company with multiple offices

This doesn't make a lot of sense. A massive company which apparently has no HR input and an owner dealing directly with a middle management layer and using them like servants?

In the UK? What do you mean by massive - 500,000 employees in a global org or 500 spread across half a dozen offices with a part time HR office?

As others have said, in IT generally its very common for husbands and wives both to be in the industry and often working for competitors.

OP you have had good advice from me (!), @MrsPinkCock and @BootsieBarnes.

I don't think you need to contact ACAS, what you need to know is here.

You also have to understand that companies often see freelancers as REALLY disposable. Below the most disposable of employees sometimes by far. They owe you nothing. You and your husband should not compromise the relationship between him and his employer at all if you need to rely on that relationship for you family income. By him asking can you go on the supplier list, he's given them cause for concern. They've handled it badly, but my view is that the law is on their side actually.

If his colleague works in accounts, and his wife is on the freelance coders list, then his colleague won't be helping his wife with coding, will he?

This is pretty common regardless of whether it’s right

Db works in web design - whilst lots of people can learn to create a web site the vast majority look weak as it’s a skill to be a designer - many of the best start as artists and graphic designers

I don’t imagine they’re worried about you poaching given you’re not a designer as such - it’ll be more that dh will take their clients and work on the side under the pretence of saying it’s you

I don't think your DHs boss has actually said that to him. Are you the poster who's DH didn't want to teach her?

I would think that he needs some sort of recording device and attempt to have the same conversation again... Would seem like a case for unfair dismissal to me (but I'm no expert)

@doctorhamster

I don't think your DHs boss has actually said that to him. Are you the poster who's DH didn't want to teach her?

Yes, this all sounds very familiar!

The poster who had no technical experience but didn’t want to work in their previously low paid jobs so their DH was going to teach them how to be an IT wizard at the weekend, only he didn’t actually want to, which was pissing the OP off as this was going to be her big break into precession work, despite having no qualifications. Wasn’t that last month?

But, since then, they are so good technically, that they feel they should be put on their DH’s company’s list of freelancers?

I would imagine his company (or him!?) simply don’t want to have anything to do with finding you work!

Odd how so many posters have commented on whether this is the same poster whose husband didn’t want to teach her and no response...? In any case this is far too complex a case for an internet forum

I agree with PP. Being a web designer, especially as a freelancer, is not simply about learning to code. There is a lot of theory behind good web design and how users interact with websites, and you need to have a design background to do it well. Even using one of the platforms that do a lot of the leg work for you needs a bit of design and technical knowhow if you want to be able to charge people for it.

@ScruffGin

I would think that he needs some sort of recording device and attempt to have the same conversation again... Would seem like a case for unfair dismissal to me (but I'm no expert)

Covertly recording an employer would be a serious breach of trust and confidence and could allow the employee to legally be dismissed for gross misconduct if they found out.

What does his contract say

If it’s not in there, and it’s not covered by any policy I don’t think there is anything they can do

Personally if I was your dh I would be looking for another job

Op did you post a while ago about your dh being unwilling to help you learn?

@PlanDeRaccordement

I know it sounds unreasonable, but that is a basic noncompete conflict of interest common to most companies ethics policies that you and your DH have violated there. And it can make him ineligible to continue in his position as he will be married to a direct competitor in their business. That breaks the noncompete rules. They also can’t add you to the freelance list because your DH is in the same function and could “steer” work to you or assist you, which is also a ethical violation. The important thing with ethics is there only need be an appearance of or opportunity for unethical behaviour, not the actual occurrence. So even if you would never compete against that company for work, and your DH would never steer freelance work to you or assist, it doesn’t matter. The opportunity is there and it looks fishy to the outside ethics evaluators.

Your only way out of it is to pick a different career in IT or get a job at same level as your DH but under a different line manager with his company.

I hate to say it op but this may be quite right. Very difficult for you I appreciate but true all the same....

I think your OH needs to go through his contract with a fine tooth comb.

Good luck with your career