AIBU to say ‘no vaccine, no seeing grandchildren’ to my anti vaccine in laws?

[Hfjshdhs]

Name changed because I’m sure that IABU and I’m a bit scared of the fallout!

My PIL are anti vaccine, conspiracy theorists (don’t think Covid exists). They are refusing to get the vaccine.

I have a 3 year old and 5 month old. The 3 year old goes to nursery, but other than that we are incredibly careful and follow all rules. My 5 month old hasn’t met anyone because we are staying safe. None of us are CEV, but equally we have friends who are healthy, have had covid, and had a really awful time of it. So we really don’t want Covid in the house.

AIBU to say to my in laws that if they don’t have the vaccine, I won’t see them, and they won’t be seeing the grandchildren? Or is that a really shitty thing to do?

For context, I have never got on with them. They are extremely controlling. My husband has a very poor relationship with them. But our daughter loves her grandparents so we make sure they have a good relationship. My PIL are both still working, in offices, so exposed every day. If I see my PIL I don’t think I could see my own parents in the following two weeks because they are vulnerable (though have been vaccinated).

@UsedUpUsername

If they denied covid existed then I would feel differently

I have relatives in the old country who still think gay people are going to hell and that abortion is murder.

They are actually lovely people that my DC adore. I also know people with all the ‘right views’ I’d never let around my children.

If she was actually concerned about her family’s wellbeing, that’s one thing (although the risks are small; as she well knows because she takes her DC to nursery). It’s about restricting a relationship with people she personally does not like.

Maybe there’s more to it, but we can only go by what she’s said so far.

If they think that they are not lovely people.

If they think that they are not lovely people

Hmmm so do most people in the developing world hold problematic opinions, in your eyes?

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

"VAERS are not the most reliable source..."

Well, not if they are including the deaths of people who had not had a covid vaccination as having been caused by the covid vaccine, no, not really.

There are similar issues with the reporting of covid deaths mind you. It is tricky to show a real causal link.

I think "tested positive and died of one of the things known to be caused by the disease" isn't all that tricky. (This isn't Belgium.)

It's not really like Saki's last words were "Put that bloody cigarette out!" just before he was shot by a sniper, and it therefore being put down as "cause of death: smoking", I feel. The latter is true in a way, but the bullet was more direct.

@UsedUpUsername

If they think that they are not lovely people

Hmmm so do most people in the developing world hold problematic opinions, in your eyes?

If they believe homophobic rot, yes.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

I think "tested positive and died of one of the things known to be caused by the disease" isn't all that tricky. (This isn't Belgium.)

It's not really like Saki's last words were "Put that bloody cigarette out!" just before he was shot by a sniper, and it therefore being put down as "cause of death: smoking", I feel. The latter is true in a way, but the bullet was more direct.

But that's not how the deaths were counted. My understanding was that the deaths are counted on the basis of people dying within 28days of testing positive. No actual causal link required.

I think that with over two and a half million deaths worldwide it's reasonable to worry about the disease even if you think a few deaths may have been mis-recorded.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55631693

"The Covid pandemic has caused excess deaths to rise to their highest level in the UK since World War Two.
"There were close to 697,000 deaths in 2020 - nearly 85,000 more than would be expected based on the average in the previous five years.
"This represents an increase of 14% - making it the largest rise in excess deaths for more than 75 years."

That will do for me as a marker that this was not just some sort of seasonal flu. I will continue to believe that people who assert it doesn't exist or isn't important are dangerous or stupid, or both.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

I think that with over two and a half million deaths worldwide it's reasonable to worry about the disease even if you think a few deaths may have been mis-recorded.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55631693

"The Covid pandemic has caused excess deaths to rise to their highest level in the UK since World War Two.
"There were close to 697,000 deaths in 2020 - nearly 85,000 more than would be expected based on the average in the previous five years.
"This represents an increase of 14% - making it the largest rise in excess deaths for more than 75 years."

That will do for me as a marker that this was not just some sort of seasonal flu. I will continue to believe that people who assert it doesn't exist or isn't important are dangerous or stupid, or both.

Oh yeah not denying the deaths, or covid. Just saying that it goes both ways - some of the adverse effects from the vaccine will have been misreported, just like some of the deaths, it doesn't mean it should be ignored. For me it's simply a risk analysis and determining my risk of falling seriously ill with covid vs my risk of falling seriously ill with the vaccine. That analysis is an individual one. If I had clear risk factors towards covid it would be a no brainer. But I don't and if anything I have a bit of an history of serious allergy to vaccines. So for now im more tempted to refuse the vaccine.

Can you point me at evidence there is a risk of you falling seriously ill with the vaccine? I haven't seen any. Apart from pre-existing conditions possibly having been made worse by it, which was the reason the AstraZeneca tests were halted at one point: someone got a completely unrelated problem and they paused everything to check on it. Just the same as they do for tests on any new medication.

(Mind you, if I'd had allergic reactions to vaccines before I would probably prefer to have the AstraZeneca version than the Pfizer one. There is an eleven in a million chance of a bad reaction with Pfizer, it seems. Not life-threatening, but unpleasant.)

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Can you point me at evidence there is a risk of you falling seriously ill with the vaccine? I haven't seen any. Apart from pre-existing conditions possibly having been made worse by it, which was the reason the AstraZeneca tests were halted at one point: someone got a completely unrelated problem and they paused everything to check on it. Just the same as they do for tests on any new medication.

Adverse effects from vaccines aren't a new thing, and it doesn't even have to be anything to do with the vaccine being somewhat 'flawed'. I nearly died from a vaccine as a child and I'm not suggesting the vaccine was wrong, it's just one of those things. Vaccines aren't risk free. And of course there are criticisms of those specific vaccines too but I've not looked into it in depth and the data will only be starting to come out anyway.

Also - I'm taking into account that treatments methods for Covid have improved thus lowering the risks of suffering from long term ill effects.
My view is simply that - I need to assess, when I'm offered the vaccine, the risks of suffering serious ill effects from the vaccine (based on the data at that point) vs the risks of suffering serious ill effects from covid taking into account the current treatment methods and my personal risk factors.

I think the operative words are "my personal risk factors"; it seems fairly clear that's not what is going on with the OP's PiL.

"Adverse effects from vaccines aren't a new thing"

Definitely is for many of us.
I remember Rubella, BCG, Polio and something I had to go to Africa and no adverse effects. (I've had Measles and Mumps so haven't been vaccinated for those.

You say your daughter loves them- you'll be inadvertently punishing her if she can't see them. Once your parents and yourselves have been vaccinated and the final Covid restrictions are lifted I wouldn't see any reason why not to have some contact

Five million people have had a particular medical treatment; thirty people who have had that treatment suffered an unrelated medical condition.

For the record, the thirty people shared that unrelated medical condition with the people who suffer it in the western world at the rate of one death from that cause every thirty-seven seconds. It's amazing that only thirty people were in the every-thirty-seven-seconds category, really.

But it's obvious that the AstraZeneca vaccine ought to protect everyone who takes it from all medical conditions, not just from covid19....

Usedupusername

Yes, they are generous and loving people, even though they do have traditional views informed by religious beliefs. They are amazing with my DCs“

I wonder if they will still be amazing when one of your children tells them they are gay or chooses to have an abortion?

People with those views are just not “lovely” or “amazing”.

If your PIL don't want to it's their prerogative. They are the ones most at risk not your young family. Most people with a healthy immune system will deal with it well. If you have herd of Geert Vanden Bossche, who is an expert virologist working with all the major viruses it may help you understand the risk more. He is most definitely one of the most pro v you will ever come across.

It's a shitty thing to do under normal circumstances, but if you don't like them you may as well use it as an excuse.

I applaud you for not letting your opinion of your pil stop your daughter from having a good relationship with her grandparents, and realizing that her relationship with them is separate and different than yours and your husband. That is a very adult, unselfish thing to do and can be hard if you don't particularly get on with them. That being said, it is completely within your rights to protect your family from exposure to covid in whatever manner you see fit including only interacting with vaccinated individuals or, at the very least, people who are aware that covid is a real thing. You can always revise that rule in the future as things progress with vaccination, covid transmission rates, and covid mutations in general or if your opinion changes at some point based on things learned at a later date. Just be sure to continue to make every effort to maintain that relationship for your daughter and realize it will be harder if they cannot socialize in person. YANBU it's your right to do as you see fit for your family.