AIBU to say ‘no vaccine, no seeing grandchildren’ to my anti vaccine in laws?

[Hfjshdhs]

Name changed because I’m sure that IABU and I’m a bit scared of the fallout!

My PIL are anti vaccine, conspiracy theorists (don’t think Covid exists). They are refusing to get the vaccine.

I have a 3 year old and 5 month old. The 3 year old goes to nursery, but other than that we are incredibly careful and follow all rules. My 5 month old hasn’t met anyone because we are staying safe. None of us are CEV, but equally we have friends who are healthy, have had covid, and had a really awful time of it. So we really don’t want Covid in the house.

AIBU to say to my in laws that if they don’t have the vaccine, I won’t see them, and they won’t be seeing the grandchildren? Or is that a really shitty thing to do?

For context, I have never got on with them. They are extremely controlling. My husband has a very poor relationship with them. But our daughter loves her grandparents so we make sure they have a good relationship. My PIL are both still working, in offices, so exposed every day. If I see my PIL I don’t think I could see my own parents in the following two weeks because they are vulnerable (though have been vaccinated).

Cuppachino isn't one for respectful polite debates unfortunately...

oblada

Cuppachino isn't one for respectful polite debates unfortunately

Conspiracy theorist, anti-vaxxers like you don't deserve respect.

At the end of the day they are entitled to their decision of not to vaccinate. Equally though you are entitled to say no vaccine no access. So no, YANBU. It's down to them now!

[quote MNWorldisCrazy]@dementedpixie That link clearly states "early data" - That is NOT evidence nor proof.

It was made very, very clear to me by my consultant and the doctors at the vaccine centre, that I'm still very likely to transmit the virus if I caught it[/quote]
Ye, but less of it.

I think the important thing is that since SARS-CoV-2 spreads through respiratory particles from an infected person’s throat and nose, so a vaccine that reduces the duration of the infection, the amount of virus in the respiratory tract (the viral load), or how often an infected person coughs is going to decrease the likelihood of it being transmitted to others.

In other words anyone else is less likely to catch it from someone with mild symptoms. Being likely to have mild rather than severe symptoms if you are one of the unlucky 6% who catches it after vaccination has been definitely recorded. (It explains the reduction in the hospital admissions of severely ill covid sufferers.)

But Cuppachino

What gives you the authority to decide who is worthy of deserving respect?

What gives you the rights to put labels upon people you f* don't even know?

Why assume you know peoples inner thoughts and their level of knowledge so well that you insult them?

Why can't some people accept it instead of assuming that they know better than the next person?
I hate to break it to you but some people DO know better.
That's why I don't go around offering my wisdom on brain surgery, or quantum physics, because I just don't know that much about it. I'd also consider myself reasonably clued up on political affairs, but I'm not going to pretend my opinions on the intricacies of Brexit fishing conditions are equal to those involved in negotiations. To do so would be arrogance.

There's a very real problem with people thinking their 'research' (aka opinions they've formed from Facebook, YouTube without any training or study in an area) is comparable to group of people who have spent decades of their lives studying in a specialist area.

There's also a problem of people who seem to think that they're on some righteous crusade against the establishment and all the sheep who apparently don't ask questions. It's delusional. There's lots of questions being asked, lots of debate, lots of criticism, just most people take a dim view of people who've think they have a PhD in vaccinations, infectious diseases, and international relations during a pandemic from the University of Facebook

Like I said earlier we are all free to speak but share different opinions.
Is there anything wrong with that?
Accepting that different people will always have different ideas is not a strange thing to do.
We are sharing opinions on MN.
It's just that. Opinions.
The real Scientists are working with the government, they are not up here on MN giving their opinions.

LolaSmiles - you have a point but there needs to be a balance too. Yes we should listen to experts but no I don't think we should just follow what they say blindly. Experts can get it wrong and experts usually advise at a global level, not an individual. So we should make individual choices. And of course not all experts are trustworthy.

For instance - in France many experts are rebelling against the 'official experts' on many subjects. Including on points concerning the vaccine. They are all experts but they don't agree. This debate isn't really present in the UK from what I can see but it certainly exists elsewhere.

Another completely different example - we had experts tell us our daughter needed a tracheostomy. I'm not a respiratory consultant. But I researched what I could and challenged their view. I raised a non invasive alternative. In the end I pushed for more tests and it was agreed that a tracheostomy wasn't needed or indeed a good idea any more. They were experts with v good intentions and I don't claim to be cleverer than them but questioning and challenging is worthwhile.

I am an expert in my field. But I don't tell anyone what to do. I advise based on my expertise. Some of my clients will go against that advice and it will work out great for them.

Experts are there to be listened to. Not followed blindly.

Going back to the vaccine - personally I have no issue with the vaccine. It's great that we have it. But I may opt not to have it because of my own assessment of the risks/benefits applicable to me.

Why assume you know peoples inner thoughts and their level of knowledge so well that you insult them?

LockdownIsDrivingMeMad Haha what? I'm insulting? Didn't you have multiple posts deleted on this thread? They weren't deleted for giving people compliments.

Didn't you also say we were all 'guinea pigs' for taking the vaccine?

Didn't you say Covid wasn't deadly? I'd say that's pretty insulting to people who have lost family and friends. The cheek of you.

Why is it apparently impossible to have a sensible discussion about anything which involves vaccines without the loop-de-loopers turning up and spraying their tiresome, ignorant opinions, lies, and sheep-related insults all over the place?

Just go away. You're dull and the grown-ups are trying to talk.

Note: I'm not referring to everybody who has questions or doubts about their own suitability for the vaccine, has criticisms of the political handling of it all, who wants to discuss genuine evidence, etc. etc. — just the more egregious headcases.

Cuppachino
They deleted my posts not for insulting anybody or complimenting, but they were about Bill Gates funding the Scientists who we see on TV.

The doctors who are not shown on TV have a different opinion.

Why don't we see them on TV?

They should show these doctors too, so that we as the public can get to hear their viewpoints as well.

If we accept a vaccine in its trials stage, then of course we are Guinea pigs because we don't know for sure of the short term or long term effects.
This is not like mmr or polio vaccines, which have been around for many years.
They trialled and tested these on volunteers to help get a better idea on how it affects people and what needs to improve before plunging the needle into the whole of humanity.
Can you say the same applies to these covid vaccine trials, which most people look so desperate for without knowing the consequences?

They're calling it vaccine trials all over the news.

I am sad for people's loss.

The Dail Mail headline on the front page was how all covid recorded deaths are not actually all covid related.

So how do you think I have insulted anybody by bringing up a national newspaper headline.?

For F sake.

Now many relatives of many of the deceased are demanding that the actual cause of death be recorded on the death certificate. They were other health conditions not related to covid.

This will bring down the number of covid deaths
How do you feel I am insulting those whose loved ones have died?

There you go assuming again.......

Quit demonising people.

I reckon 23,000+ is a reasonable test sample, myself, and that was for only one of the many vaccines now available.

LockdownIsDrivingMeMad

I rest my case...

I really sympathise as they're being very selfish and you have every right to protect yourselves and your children. I have no truck with anti-vaxx, Covid denying conspiracy theorists. It's something that makes me very angry, so I'd be tempted to tell them to eff off, but you can't really do that. Unfortunately I can't think of a solution.

@LockdownIsDrivingMeMad

You mention doctors who have different opinions about the vaccine. Can you link any articles? Otherwise it does look like you’re only relying on the ‘University of Facebook’ or You-tube.

The doctors who are not shown on TV have a different opinion.

Who are these anonymous doctors, specifically? Can you provide names and medical credentials?

They trialled and tested these on volunteers to help get a better idea on how it affects people and what needs to improve before plunging the needle into the whole of humanity.

No, actually the stage three trials established safety and efficacy sufficiently to warrant regulatory authorization to use, which several have received.

If you don't want to be vaccinated, that's perfectly fine with me. But please don't spread misinformation in an effort to get others to agree with you.

Your kids, your rules. Use zoom so your daughter can safely see them

Your first duty is to protect your children. And there are consequences to actions. The consequence to their refusal to be vaccinated is that they will not see the children that you are protecting.

Now, a side-effect of this is that you won't have to deal with seeing them, which is a plus for you, but it still boils down to, "your first duty is to protect your children."

Any number of us can argue both sides of how dangerous COVID-19 is to young children, but the fact remains that if this mother considers there to be a risk, she would be negligent in allowing her own children to be exposed to unvaccinated adults.

number of us can argue both sides of how dangerous COVID-19 is to young children, but the fact remains that if this mother considers there to be a risk, she would be negligent in allowing her own children to be exposed to unvaccinated adults

Then why’s she sending her DC to nursery? It doesn’t appear that it’s because of work. There will be unvaccinated adults and children there

I am not sure that it would be reasonable to ban the grandparents from seeing their grandchildren just because they themselves don't get the vaccine. The biggest danger is to the grandparents themselves, not the children.

However, if they are anti-vaxxers and Covid deniers, it may not stop at not getting the vaccine for themselves; they may have a general mentality of not taking normal precautions; of encouraging the children to ignore social distancing measures; of generally discouraging the health protective measures that doctors recommend, not just on this one issue.

Certainly the children should at present only see their grandparents if a parent is also present,

I am not sure that it would be reasonable to ban the grandparents from seeing their grandchildren just because they themselves don't get the vaccine. The biggest danger is to the grandparents themselves, not the children.

However, if they are anti-vaxxers and Covid deniers, it may not stop at not getting the vaccine for themselves; they may have a general mentality of not taking normal precautions; of encouraging the children to ignore social distancing measures; of generally discouraging the health protective measures that doctors recommend, not just on this one issue

Exactly this.
When restrictions lift, my DC will be seeing family who haven't been vaccinated. I'm happy with that because their relatives aren't covid deniers, have been following the rules, and are of the common sense mindset that it will be great to meet up again but when we do, we should be sensible.

If they denied covid existed then I would feel differently.

If they denied covid existed then I would feel differently

I have relatives in the old country who still think gay people are going to hell and that abortion is murder.

They are actually lovely people that my DC adore. I also know people with all the ‘right views’ I’d never let around my children.

If she was actually concerned about her family’s wellbeing, that’s one thing (although the risks are small; as she well knows because she takes her DC to nursery). It’s about restricting a relationship with people she personally does not like.

Maybe there’s more to it, but we can only go by what she’s said so far.

You need to check who has and has not had vaccine at the Nursery before sending dc there too.
It's all about taking the right precautions.
They my not have yet as mostly the elderly and those with health issues will be prioritised before they move on to everyone else.
I wonder if you've done this already.

UsedUpUsername

I have relatives in the old country who still think gay people are going to hell and that abortion is murder. “

Lovely people?

I have relatives in the old country who still think gay people are going to hell and that abortion is murder.
They are actually lovely people that my DC adore. I also know people with all the ‘right views’ I’d never let around my children
It's not about views. It's about actions that flow from views.

People who don't believe covid exists, in my experience, have form for not following lockdown restrictions, mixing freely throughout, refusing to wear masks, not sanitizing their hands and so on. If you deny something exists then why would you take all those precautions?

We are just getting to relax restrictions, nothing is risk free, and I wouldn't be happy mixing with people who think Covid is a hoax.

What I can't get my around is how often people say personal judgement is fine when those citing 'personal judgement' do so to ignore restrictions, but when a mother exercises her judgement to be more cautious as restrictions lift she is apparently manipulative and controlling.