AIBU to say ‘no vaccine, no seeing grandchildren’ to my anti vaccine in laws?

[Hfjshdhs]

Name changed because I’m sure that IABU and I’m a bit scared of the fallout!

My PIL are anti vaccine, conspiracy theorists (don’t think Covid exists). They are refusing to get the vaccine.

I have a 3 year old and 5 month old. The 3 year old goes to nursery, but other than that we are incredibly careful and follow all rules. My 5 month old hasn’t met anyone because we are staying safe. None of us are CEV, but equally we have friends who are healthy, have had covid, and had a really awful time of it. So we really don’t want Covid in the house.

AIBU to say to my in laws that if they don’t have the vaccine, I won’t see them, and they won’t be seeing the grandchildren? Or is that a really shitty thing to do?

For context, I have never got on with them. They are extremely controlling. My husband has a very poor relationship with them. But our daughter loves her grandparents so we make sure they have a good relationship. My PIL are both still working, in offices, so exposed every day. If I see my PIL I don’t think I could see my own parents in the following two weeks because they are vulnerable (though have been vaccinated).

Well if you really wanted them to see the grandchildren, they could wear PPE. But you don't want them to, so do what you want.

@babbaloushka

Bumbleymummy

No, it's not measles and the at risk groups are different, but the anti-vax mindset clear and relevant to this thread also puts children at risk. The more distrust people have in the scientific experts, the more likely they are to suffer the effects. Dahl did some wonderful work dispelling the anti-vax conspiracies (in his daughter's memory), and while it beggars belief that it is still needed, decades later, people ought to be educated.

Not wanting one particular vaccine against a disease that carries a low risk for the vast majority of people does not make someone ‘anti-vaxx’.

Bumbleymummy

It is difficult to discriminate between those that are at risk and those that are not. The most conscientious course of action is to take the vaccine, which will offer protection to both you and those you may infect if you caught it. I don't believe it's too difficult to understand, granted I have a biomedical degree, but I seem to remember by DC learning the fundementals at GCSE. What don't you quite understand?

Bumbleymummy

And I do believe that being against a vaccine makes you anti-vax. That's literally what it means.

there seems to be an assumption that the covid vaccine is entirely risk free here? If that's the case then I understand why people may struggle with the idea that some may opt to refuse the vaccine.

The vaccine is risk free. AZ or the NHS will never guarantee this. It carries risks and for some of those risks / side effect etc the data will come out only later on. Vaccines are a good thing but they are not risk free. Far from it. Hence why it makes sense to make an informed decision based on personal circumstances. Like for any medical decision really. I don't just follow doctors blindly, I question, challenge and research for myself. I've done that recently with my youngest and if me and DH hadn't been there to challenge the experts the outcome today would have been very different.

Well by that logic, the people who decide not to have the flu vaccine each year are ‘anti-vaxx’ but I think you’ll find that the majority of them have had themselves and their children vaccinated against most other diseases that vaccines are available for.

And we have actually identified the most at risk groups. That’s why the vaccines are being offered to certain people first. You can find the IFR and CFR for various age groups if you want to look up the studies yourself.

bumbleymummy

It's not that simple, unfortunately. Take the late 40s TA of a primary school near me, who had no underlying conditions, was not obese, nor were any factors discovered after her death that indicated why she might have died from it. Her two teen DDs are now having to adjust to life without their mum. She was presumed to be low risk, as many are, or assume they are. Now her daughters have no mum.

I think the most important point is why you believe your choice, which flies in the face of established medical advice by credible, highly trained and experienced experts, is right. What gem of knowledge do you have to offer that the thousands upon thousands of incredibly bright and well educated scientists have overlooked? Why is your opinion more worthy than their knowledge and experience?

Nothing wrong with people questioning before making any decisions rather than blindly following. I have seen some reports that suggest the vaccine helps limit transmission, but I haven't seen anything as yet to see what exactly this is based on. Many people who have had the vaccine are still in isolation and we are still in lockdown so minimum contact with people. Will figures go back up once we come out of lockdown?

We have told my SIL that she is not welcome to stay with us (lives 300 miles away) until she has had the vaccine. Surprisingly she works with vulnerable people too.

Your 3 year old goes to nursery. I think you are using this as an excuse to not see them.

If you have an issue with them, deal with that. Don't use the vaccines as an excuse.

YANBU,
But I would not say no jab= no grand children. That is just inflammatory and controlling.

Instead I would would require proof of immunity as in either a recent immunity test (proves they have had Covid and are immune) or vaccine (immune through being jabbed) in order to visit with any of you at all because your side of the family is clinically vulnerable to Covid.

The primary thing is you want them to be immune to Covid to be safe to visit with any family. Also, anti vaxxers tend to just dig in their heels. Saying a ultimatum to them won’t convert them to getting the vaccine or even to consider it. They’ll just be outraged and call you a controlling and manipulative evil DIL who is keeping them from their grandchildren ..etc etc..family drama, bitterness, retaliation.

@sweeneytoddsrazor

Nothing wrong with people questioning before making any decisions rather than blindly following. I have seen some reports that suggest the vaccine helps limit transmission, but I haven't seen anything as yet to see what exactly this is based on. Many people who have had the vaccine are still in isolation and we are still in lockdown so minimum contact with people. Will figures go back up once we come out of lockdown?

Can offer some insight:

The vaccine helps promote the primary immune response. The first time you are infected, it takes some time for your immune system to recognise the virus and form a response. By this time, the virus is better established and you are likely to show symptoms.

If you have been vaccinated, your body has the ability to recognise and attack the virus much quicker, because it has encountered it before, in the vaccine. This means the virus can be destroyed likely before you show symptoms. This is key, as the symptom of coughing causes the most transmission, so if you have been vaccinated, you are less likely to cough, and therefore less likely to transfer the viral particles to others.

Obviously simplified, but I hope that helps a bit.

The Covid vaccines aren't zero-risk, but they're very very very very very low-risk, as vaccines tend to be, otherwise nobody could justify administering them to healthy people.

@babbaloushka every year otherwise healthy people succumb to lots of different diseases. Low risk does not mean no risk. Some people are willing to take that low risk and should be allowed to do so.

[quote bumbleymummy]@babbaloushka every year otherwise healthy people succumb to lots of different diseases. Low risk does not mean no risk. Some people are willing to take that low risk and should be allowed to do so.[/quote]
What about the people that are put at risk by your decision? The risk of COVID might be low, but the risks posed by the vaccines are even lower and have decidedly more benefits. You are yet to disclose this special knowledge you have that justifies your decision in the face of expert advice.

Of course they should be allowed to! And other people should be allowed to choose not to socialise with them because of that decision.

@babbaloushka well by that logic we should be vaccinating everyone against flu every year because they could be putting other people at risk.
We don’t do that.

@CrayonInThreeBits

Of course they should be allowed to! And other people should be allowed to choose not to socialise with them because of that decision.

Well that would be a bit silly seeing as you could be sitting next to someone on the bus that hasn’t been vaccinated. Or, as in this case, sending your child into nursery with a bunch of unvaccinated children who could be carrying it from home.

I don't tend to hug, kiss, or have long face-to-face indoor conversations with randoms I'm sitting next to on the bus for ten minutes.

Ok so we're making the assumption that the covid vaccine carried definitely more benefits than risk for each individual person. I don't think we have the data to support that so that's where I disagree.
I agree at a global level / population level the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the risks but I don't agree it is proven yet that it is the case at an individual level.
For now each person should make their own decision based on their own risk factors.
If it turns out that with that assessment not enough people take up the vaccine to secure herd immunity etc then the government may have to consider revisiting the vaccine and/or making it mandatory. Until then I'll make the assessment that is right for me based on the data we have currently.

@boltfromtheblueblue

peeps, don't bother engaging with bumbley. She's an anti vax nutter who only appears on vax threads. We think she actually predates MN, that's how long she's been at this shit.

Thanks for the heads up, was starting to wear a bit thin.

I’m not anti vaccine. I’m anti compulsory vaccination Despite what some MNers seem to think, there is a difference.

@CrayonInThreeBits

I don't tend to hug, kiss, or have long face-to-face indoor conversations with randoms I'm sitting next to on the bus for ten minutes.

You realise that you don’t have to be hugging, kissing and talking to people for long periods of time to catch COVID don’t you? Why do you think we’ve all been socially distanced and wearing masks if that was the only thing we had to avoid?

bumbleymummy

@babbaloushka well by that logic we should be vaccinating everyone against flu every year because they could be putting other people at risk.
We don’t do that.”

I think we’re heading that way. All over 50s were offered a free jab this year (for the first time, I think?)