AIBU to say ‘no vaccine, no seeing grandchildren’ to my anti vaccine in laws?

[Hfjshdhs]

Name changed because I’m sure that IABU and I’m a bit scared of the fallout!

My PIL are anti vaccine, conspiracy theorists (don’t think Covid exists). They are refusing to get the vaccine.

I have a 3 year old and 5 month old. The 3 year old goes to nursery, but other than that we are incredibly careful and follow all rules. My 5 month old hasn’t met anyone because we are staying safe. None of us are CEV, but equally we have friends who are healthy, have had covid, and had a really awful time of it. So we really don’t want Covid in the house.

AIBU to say to my in laws that if they don’t have the vaccine, I won’t see them, and they won’t be seeing the grandchildren? Or is that a really shitty thing to do?

For context, I have never got on with them. They are extremely controlling. My husband has a very poor relationship with them. But our daughter loves her grandparents so we make sure they have a good relationship. My PIL are both still working, in offices, so exposed every day. If I see my PIL I don’t think I could see my own parents in the following two weeks because they are vulnerable (though have been vaccinated).

@oblada

UsedUpUsername - thank you! My thoughts exactly. Being "pro vaccine" as a blanket statement is as insane as being 'anti vaccine' as a blanket statement. Vaccines are obviously a good thing but not everyone is going to get every vaccine under the sun!

Being pro-vaccine is the educated way of thinking. Vaccination has saved and improved more lives than any other public health intervention. We have been vaccinating since the 1940s and many dreadful diseases have been controlled. Where would we be without vaccines? Just think about polio, how devastating was that? With people dying, some becoming disabled and others living in an iron lung. How can anyone not be pro-vaccine?

Well it's entirely upto you and your DH but really your dc pose more of a risk to their gp's than vice versa.
Going forward are you going to demand to know the vaccination status of everyone you and your children spend time with though? Friends, teachers, colleagues etc? I really can't see that going down very well.

oblada this isn't "every vaccine under the sun" is it? It's the one set of vaccines in a pandemic that will help get us back to something approaching normality and help prevent variants.

What exactly does your husband do in his work with vaccines? That could mean anything from a scientist who creates vaccines to someone who drives the van which distributes them. It doesn't give you any more credibility than anyone else on here.

Any adult who can have the Covid vaccine, should have it. That’s the way vaccination works. You don’t just have it to protect yourself, you have it to protect everyone else as well, especially those who can’t have it due to being immunosuppressed

Some vaccines rely on herd immunity but not all. Tetanus shots do not, because tetanus is not an infectious disease, for instance. Flu, while infectious, mutates far too fast for the shot to give effective herd immunity. And that’s even if the seasonal flu shot will be effective that year, which is far from certain.

You get a flu shot to protect yourself mostly, or others if you are working with a vulnerable population (young kids and elderly for the flu).

Another example—if you are a young person living in a dorm or a house share, a meningitis vaccine might be a good idea.

Risk profile is basically assessing your own individual health and circumstances and then making decisions based on that. So if you are obese or have an underlying health condition, or you are living in a multigenerational household with elderly family, COVID shot is a really good thing for you. But other people will have different situations.

Risk profile is basically assessing your own individual health and circumstances and then making decisions based on that. So if you are obese or have an underlying health condition, or you are living in a multigenerational household with elderly family, COVID shot is a really good thing for you. But other people will have different situations.

But if you look at the risks vs benefits of having the vaccine, there's very few people for whom the benefits don't outweigh the risks. Even if you're in an extremely low-risk group when it comes to Covid, having the vaccine comes out as even less risky. The downside is you might feel unwell for a couple of days. The upside is cutting whatever risk you would've had from Covid, plus avoiding the potential anguish of passing Covid to someone who gets it really badly, plus warm fuzzy feelings of not being a selfish prat.

@knittingaddict

oblada this isn't "every vaccine under the sun" is it? It's the one set of vaccines in a pandemic that will help get us back to something approaching normality and help prevent variants.

What exactly does your husband do in his work with vaccines? That could mean anything from a scientist who creates vaccines to someone who drives the van which distributes them. It doesn't give you any more credibility than anyone else on here.

I didn't say it gave me more credibility I merely answered a question re obtaining data if I need it. He doesn't drive the van, he is just below director level, not that it matters one bit. Neither did I say me and DH agreed on everything. I just said if I need data I can ask him and make an informed decision for myself.

YANBU but I doubt they’ll see it like that. You should don your hard hat now.

I just said if I need data I can ask him and make an informed decision for myself.

Asking someone else isn't an "informed decision". If you want that then there is lots of information on the internet from official sources.

@Hfjshdhs

Yes, I have already said a couple of times that my views of them may be clouding my judgment. What they have done to us in the past has been awful. Controlling doesn’t really cover it. I’m not going to share details as it is really outing. We went NC for about six months 4 years ago, but they promised they would change so started seeing them again.

Saying that I’m punishing my DC for liking them is ridiculous.

My DH agrees with me. He’s finding it all very hard though.

I know that we are at risk with my DD at nursery, but for me the benefit of her being there (it’s her education, her time to make friends and socialise) outweighs the risk. She’s in a very small bubble. At the same time, I don’t want to invite more risk into my life than I have to.

A close family member, someone young and healthy, got Covid and it has had devastating consequences. So this is also clouding my judgment.

Additionally, as a consequence of Covid I lost my job. Like everyone I’ve found the last year so, so hard. I’m devastated that my parents haven’t met my baby yet, but they (and we) wanted to do the right thing and wait until they were vaccinated, cases reduced, and we were allowed to. I just want things to go back to normal, and this is dependant on people getting vaccinated, so I think my in laws are being utterly selfish and that makes me extremely angry at them. Again, clouding my judgment.

So because of your belief that the inlaws have to have the vaccine, you are holding them ransom because your parents are cev.

Why can't you arrange time so that you see inlaws 1st weekend of the month and parents 3rd?

Noone has to get the vaccine. It may well reduce transmission, but noone is obligated to inject their body for the benefit of others. Only to reduce the risk to the self.

I say this as someone who has been shielding for the last year as I'm cev and it's shit. Your parents have protected themselves and that's sufficient.

You want to use this as justification not to see them. This makes you as manipulative as what you infer they are if not worse as this is calculated.

no one has to get the vaccine. It may well reduce transmission, but noone is obligated to inject their body for the benefit of others

Studies show it does reduce transmission. We are all obligated, in many ways, when we live in a world populated by others. The selfish attitude about obligations to others, is scary.

I didn't say it gave me more credibility I merely answered a question re obtaining data if I need it.
He doesn't drive the van, he is just below director level, not that it matters one bit. Neither did I say me and DH agreed on everything. I just said if I need data I can ask him and make an informed decision for myself.

So how informed is your husband if he isn't a scientist? Why go to your admin? husband when you could find actual information from scientists who are reputable and know their stuff.

Dodgy youtube "experts" don't count as reputable, by the way, before someone posts a link.

Not that all youtube videos are dodgy. I am aware that some intelligent and responsible experts do post on there.

YABU Children are in the lowest possible risk group. Your children are more of a risk to them than the other way around. If they want to take that risk then it’s up to them.

@knittingaddict

I didn't say it gave me more credibility I merely answered a question re obtaining data if I need it. He doesn't drive the van, he is just below director level, not that it matters one bit. Neither did I say me and DH agreed on everything. I just said if I need data I can ask him and make an informed decision for myself.

So how informed is your husband if he isn't a scientist? Why go to your admin? husband when you could find actual information from scientists who are reputable and know their stuff.

Dodgy youtube "experts" don't count as reputable, by the way, before someone posts a link.

Uh? He is a scientist, a very well paid scientist with a pretty important role in a global vaccine company... admin? I said he was just below Director level, not admin at all. Anyway his CV isn't relevant really. All I know is that I can get reliable information if I need to. And then I can make a decision based on my personal situation.

If others want to blindly take a vaccine for the greater good - great, go for it. For me I'd rather look at my own situation and assess risks and benefits. Taking the covid vaccine definitely makes sense for many people. But maybe not all.

oblada why is it that you think uneducated members of the general public like you and me are better able to analyse risk vs. benefit of a vaccine than the experts who are paid to make these evaluations and have issued recommendations for who should and shouldn't be vaccinated?

Or is it that you're scared of scientists prioritising the greater good over you in particular, so you think it's fine to be a vaccine freeloader?

@CrayonInThreeBits

oblada why is it that you think uneducated members of the general public like you and me are better able to analyse risk vs. benefit of a vaccine than the experts who are paid to make these evaluations and have issued recommendations for who should and shouldn't be vaccinated?

The recommendation is a global one - it definitely makes sense as a global recommendation. But currently it remains an individual choice and one I intend to take full ownership of. Whether it should/shouldnt be an individual choice is a different debate with different views.

As a toddler I nearly died as a result of a childhood vaccine. The vaccine itself was fine, I was very unlucky to react that way.
If I have 1 chance in a million to have a severe adverse reaction to covid vaccine but 1 in 10millions of having a severe adverse reaction following getting covid then I may not take the vaccine. If the stats are different then my choice will be different.
I have no risk factor (known) and we live a pretty secluded life atm so I have the benefit of being able to wait and see as more data is being released re the pros and cons of the vaccine before I decide.
I appreciate everyone will be in a different situation and up to them to decide what is right for them.

Also the recommendations are that clear cut - AZ said no to breastfeeding mothers but seems to have u turned on this (or is it just the NHS?)? And AZ also said no if history of allergy (like me) but the other vaccine may be fine.
Views and recommendations will change over time driven by data.

'Are not'

YANBU. Other way round here. My vaccinated parents (81 and 74) won’t see anyone in the family until they have all been vaccinated twice.
Perfectly sensible and everyone understands and will all be vaccinated.

@CrayonInThreeBits

Or is it that you're scared of scientists prioritising the greater good over you in particular, so you think it's fine to be a vaccine freeloader?

The scientists should prioritise the greater good definitely. It's my responsibility and mine alone to make the right decision for me. "My greater good" is my concern alone and understandably so.

I'm not going to argue that it shouldn't be an individual choice (though I think it's reasonable if that choice has natural consequences).

Your situation is far from unique… they'll have already looked at the best data they can to find out whether it's a good idea for people who reacted to a childhood vaccine to have the Covid vaccine, and made their recommendations based on that. Your level of isolation isn't taken into account, true, but I doubt you're hermetically sealed away from the world.

YANBU. It's their choice not to have the vaccine but it's NOT their choice to endanger others.

I am so surprised at the other posters saying you are being controlling or trying to bully them into getting it - that's not the case at all. It's about allowing them to make their own decisions but also about allowing OP to make her own decisions about how to safeguard her family. In fact the bullying comment is a ridiculous comment. By saying OP is bullying them into getting the vaccine by withholding visits with the grandkids, the converse is that the PILs are allowed to bully OP into visits where she feels unsafe. The difference is one side is guided by concerns of a very real, documented risk (not just to OP's kids but to OP and her DH and anyone else they come into contact with) and the other is an entirely uneducated and ignorant viewpoint (and to reiterate, they are allowed to have that viewpoint but they shouldn't be allowed to draw others into the risk they are posing to themselves). Why should ignorance trump???

And other posters saying kids are already at nursery so they may as well see the PIL. This logic is so flawed. For one, nursery is a necessary evil for parents who work (as is, say hospitals or doctors they may need to see). And even if there is a risk at nursery it does not change the fact that seeing further people in a different setting is an entirely distinct and additional risk.

OP please don't listen to other posters making you feel bad. Even if they were the nicest PIL in the world you will never be unreasonable for trying to keep your family safe.

I suppose my view is this - I won't follow anything blindly, I will look at the recommendation (global and 'specific'), the data and my personal situation and make a choice I am happy to live with. I think everyone should do the same but it is up to people really.

We have the opposite here. Fil and his partner are refusing to see anyone unless they are vaccinated.

so this means they won't see us or the dc. in my view, no great loss - but its dh's dad, and i think he is upset about this. we are way down the list for the vaccine anyway so won't be getting ours until at least September at the very earliest.

the dc won't be vaccinated as i don't believe they are offering it to those under 16 (dc are 3 and 18m).

so even when dh and i have had ours, the dc still won't be vaccinated so they still won't see the dc.

i think that someone above said that the op is bullying her in laws? i don't see bullying, i see a slight bit of control - as in actions have consequences and if they don't have the vaccine they won't see the kids. surely though they may feel bullied into it if they really want to see the grandkids?