To think that if NHS staff get a 1% pay rise that is nothing but an insult?

[Bluetoybox]

Given the joke of a pay rise given over the last 3 years, well below inflation in real terms anyway but where the Government also out and out lied by failing to mention that you'd drop an increment step to get your pay rise and now this after all the NHS have done in the last year!!! A decade capped at 1% before the 3 year review and now they want to send us right back to 1%
Absolutely disgusted!

It’s not even 13% it’s more!

[quote Sunflowergirl1]@Schonerlebnis
"comparing the economy to a household budget is ludicrous"

I'm sorry but it isn't ludicrous. The principal is that year in and year out you can't keep spending more than you have as income and that is what has happened in this country for far to long. It used to be that borrowing was used to even out the economic cycles..but no longer.

I have simplistic the principal as not all MN contributors are economists but the IFS are are the same conclusion.

At some point unless the National income increases substantially (which is unlikely due to Covid and Brexit) spending will have to be cut and cut to painful levels[/quote]
Except most Western economies have routinely run deficits throughout the modern era. Indeed our economies are dependent upon it.

The IFS is primarily a policy unit in this regard and they promote this idea that governments should only spend what they earn, not has some fundament of economic reality but as a point of political ideology. It is what they believe, like unicorns in the mist. This has long been a criticism of the supposedly 'ideology free' IFS.

You can't equate households with national economies for very obvious reasons:

• households can't print their own money
• households have to earn first before paying for things (that includes convincing others to give them money in the form of loans).
• households do not have investors lining up to buy their debt on long term terms.

The UK government can print its own money, has its own bank that is legally obliged to pay its bills regardless, and has institutional investors (such as pension funds) who rely on its debt as stable parts of their portfolios.

The problem the government needs to guard against is not that it can't balance the books, because it doesn't matter that it does, but that it doesn't end up in an inflationary spiral. The idea that a decent pay rise for NHS staff, which in essence actually pumps money into the private economy, is the thing that will tip us into runaway inflation is nonsense.

This is not an economic decision, it is a political one. The economic arguments are just window dressing.

Let us remember that a decade of austerity (the means by which the books are attempted to be balanced) has just led to poor productivity, a weak economy, enhanced borrowing and increased inequality. It simply doesn't work.You can't cut your way out of a recession. It is a constant source of amazement to see that the arguments that the government is using to claim it can't afford to pay nurses more are still being defended by apparently intelligent people after the last 10 years.

I hate the division being caused over this, it's pathetic. It even explains why HRMC are getting a pay rise (similar to why newly qualified nurses had an increase not wildly long ago of £3k), and those who will largely benefit are those on the bottom rung who work bloody hard dealing with an increased workload who have been on less pay than their colleagues. I also hate the we have done all of this for you over the pandemic, when actually for the vast majority of people that's not true, and everyone has done their part.

I do agree they should be paid more (nurse pay isn't actually that bad, but porters, cleaners and HCAs especially), but I do think it's crass at the moment to be 'demanding' 12.5%. A few more quid isn't going to help retain people, it's need investment in create a better working environment and access to MH care (although the military have been waiting for over a decade).

Except most Western economies have routinely run deficits throughout the modern era. Indeed our economies are dependent upon it.

If doesn’t mean we can keep running up the deficit forever. Even at national level, money is leant with the expectation that it will be eventually be paid back.

Otherwise why would we even bother to generate revenue? Couldn’t we just borrow and borrow and borrow?

The problem is that interest rates will eventually go up and at some stage we risk being devalued as borrowers. That’s a huge problem.

The problem is that interest rates will eventually go up and at some stage we risk being devalued as borrowers. That’s a huge problem.
Except, if interest rates go up, that mean inflation goes up, and inflation would shrink debt (?)

If the NHS should not ask for a pay rise this year, after all it has been through, there will never be an acceptable time to discuss appropriate pay . There will always be another reason and another excuse...

This. So much this. I can’t believe people are trotting out the tired old magic money tree trope when the government can find a bloody forest when it suits them.

If the NHS should not ask for a pay rise this year, after all it has been through, there will never be an acceptable time to discuss appropriate pay . There will always be another reason and another excuse...

1,000.000.000.000.%

@Alsohuman

If the NHS should not ask for a pay rise this year, after all it has been through, there will never be an acceptable time to discuss appropriate pay . There will always be another reason and another excuse...

This. So much this. I can’t believe people are trotting out the tired old magic money tree trope when the government can find a bloody forest when it suits them.

Yep. Funny how the magic money tree always magically sprouts when the tories are in power so they have billions to give to their mates but then magically disappears whenever there’s an general election and they’re attacking the opposition.

@Fire7

The problem is there's simply no money. That was always going to happen after 3 lockdowns and having whole swaths of the economy and society closed for a year.

The government is funded by people working and paying taxes. That is what funds hospitals and nurses.

I think a lot of people who seem to think lockdowns are cost free are going to be in for a shock over the next few years.

This is just the beginning of the long-term consequences.

Do you remember Teresa May saying there wasn’t a magic money tree then finding £1B to pay the DUP to enable the Tories to stay in power? Well now Johnson and chums have found, 2.7 million on an media briefing room in No 10, £37 billion for a track and trace system that doesn’t work, £340,000 to pay Priti Patel’s settlement with Sir Phillip Rutman after her alleged bullying, £100 B on HS2, And countless millions to their mates for substandard and non existent PPE.

So if they are not rewarding NHS workers with a decent pay rise it is simply because they are choosing not to.

I don't doubt that certain parts of the NHS have absolutely unquestionably worked their socks off this year, but I can't imagine every single NHS employee has. So it would be nice to see some differentiation perhaps? And perhaps a bonus scheme rather than a blanket pay rise.

One thing that does always get overlooked, however, is employer pension contributions. The NHS employer contribution increased from 14% to over 20% in 2019, that's a fantastic benefit. Elsewhere, statutory contributions are 3%, and many employees are unable to contribute much, if anything, themselves.

I support the NHS and front line staff, but I also think there needs to be recognition of the full package and the picture of the economy as a whole. Unfortunately, however, there never seem to be calls for increased wages for public sector when the economy is healthier - perhaps unions should be trying to bargain wage increases that peg certain key economic indicators?

There isn’t much point in pension contributions going up so that people have money in the future.

Increasing numbers of NHS staff are relying on food banks NOW.

@ohfourfoxache
Increasing numbers of NHS staff are relying on food banks NOW

What hope is there for the rest of us most my friends in the NHS earn between 24 and 45k

The lowest paid is a health care asst on 18k if they were in the private sector that would be 16k. My sister is in NHS admin and get 20k in the private sector that would be minimum wage .

It’s a shit situation all round @rwalker - I’m not saying everyone in the private sector has it easy because I suspect that the vast majority really don’t.

But there is significant evidence that NHS pay has decreased when other sectors have had pay rises. When the country enjoys its good times, when there is a boom, do you think that the public sector gets to benefit too? If you think it does then you’re kidding yourself.

I’m not saying that other people don’t have it bad - of course they do. But they aren’t being asked to work unpaid overtime, in PPE, quite literally keeping the country alive.

NB I am well aware that not all NHS workers have been doing this. I am an NHS worker and although I’ve been working my usual long hours, overtime unpaid of course, I’ve purely been engaged in business as usual. I do not feel I’ve done anything to warrant a pay rise. But so many of my colleagues have.

@ohfourfoxache

There isn’t much point in pension contributions going up so that people have money in the future.

Increasing numbers of NHS staff are relying on food banks NOW.

Heard this a lot about nurses, who start on £24k which is more than many earn. If someone on £24k is using food banks, what about those who earn minimum wage? Lots of people sadly have to use food banks and we should be fighting for ALL to be able to afford to live, not those who are potentially on £8k more than others a year as a starting wage just by virtue of the job they do imo.

The fundamental problem of course is that the gulf between the rich and poor is widening. I suspect that the NHS pay rise would have far more support if there wasn’t so much bad feeling amongst the poorer proportion of the population. Many, many people deserve pay rises (teachers, police etc had a (meagre) pay rise last year when the NHS was ignored, supposedly because the NHS already had a “pay rise”

Bottom line is that either we treat the people keeping us alive better, or they leave. Which many are doing already and it will only get worse

Actually, if the NHS is so much better to work for then there is nothing stopping people in minimum wage jobs from applying. Personally I would welcome this with open arms! But the fact is that it’s shit pay and shit conditions and I suspect that the vast majority have more sense

@Frubecube I wholeheartedly agree - so many people are living in poverty as the rich get richer. It isn’t fair - it’s morally abhorrent

@ohfourfoxache

Actually, if the NHS is so much better to work for then there is nothing stopping people in minimum wage jobs from applying. Personally I would welcome this with open arms! But the fact is that it’s shit pay and shit conditions and I suspect that the vast majority have more sense

A lot of people with caring experience from working in a care home etc actually want to progress, but as the government took away having fees funded and a reasonable bursary (£5k is obviously good, but not enough to sustain a household if you have bills to pay), they financially cannot, add on doing an access course as diplomas were removed then it's not doable. Entry level NHS jobs get a lot of applications, many on minimum wage jobs do apply but don't get sifted. My friend was involved in shortlisting for a band 2 admin job, they had nearly 200 applicants- absolutely crazy.

I am sure many would like the chance :)

YANBU

I suppose they need to keep cash aside for Boris & Carrie's redecorating

@Frubecube that’s actually really worrying....many services would REALLY benefit from more entry level staff - the fact that there are so many people applying and not getting through is actually really upsetting

Whilst I agree that the NHS may deserve financial recognition I think it is somewhat tone deaf to be moaning about the lack of payrise when some 800,000 people lost their jobs last year.

At least the NHS staff had jobs, were still paid their full salary.

This country is broke, the nonsense lockdowns caused huge spend in furlough, people lost their jobs, their homes, their families. Moaning about a small payrise to people who now have nothing is at best uncaring at worst totally tone deaf.

@SpnBaby1967 the country isn’t so broke that we can’t afford £35bn to spaff away on Serco track and trace

[quote ohfourfoxache]@Frubecube that’s actually really worrying....many services would REALLY benefit from more entry level staff - the fact that there are so many people applying and not getting through is actually really upsetting[/quote]
Yes I agree, the same is always true of entry level positions though really. In theory anyone can apply for them- the overqualified, those with masses of experience as well as those with none; whereas for jobs that require certain quals and experience obviously the pool of applications who are eligible to apply is smaller, and that is usually where the issue is. A lot of employers often in-house quals or whatever to bridge the gap and see people through from the lower grades to the higher to help with the shortfall, but only recently have NAs etc started to crop back up, and it still requires a lot of experience as a HCA.

[quote ohfourfoxache]@SpnBaby1967 the country isn’t so broke that we can’t afford £35bn to spaff away on Serco track and trace [/quote]
Surely that is why we're broke? Yes, they fucked that up but it's done. The money is gone. Ergo.....broke

This one is a nightmare.... YANBU... yet how does it get funded? We can’t escape the economics. Everyone wanting higher wealth taxes - seems obvious yet causes a flight of capital. Paradoxically tax receipts go up when income tax rates are lower... i quite like the Aussie system where use of medical services is means tested and you have to pay to turn up at a GP. It ends up being a small amount but it stops wastage. The NHS is grossly wasteful and inefficient with a fat layer of management who salaries should be redirected to nurses - whoever negotiated the contract to pay c£8 for a packet of generic paracetamol should be strung up alive.