Am I "allowed" to just not like certain things?

[Anycrispsleft]

I have lived in Germany for about 5 years and I'm planning to leave in an year or two. We have primary school aged kids, and I went on a German parenting forum the other day to ask a quick question about primary school assessment and ended up mentioning when asked that I was planning to leave Germany, and when pressed, admitted that I don't like it here. I then got loads of comments that I wasn't trying hard enough, that of course as a SAHM I must be unfulfilled and I should have done voluntary work and found hobbies so I could make friends and so on.

Maybe I should have done all that but I don't think it would have helped. I do know a few people from the kids being in school - nice people who I like - but hanging out with people while speaking German isn't fun to me at all, it's like a German class, and after an hour or so I'm knackered and desperate to leave. I was always quite an introvert and I think in the UK I got most of my positive social interactions with work colleagues and just as you deal with strangers through your day, saying hello to the lady at the checkout in Tesco's or whatever. Those kind of small scale interactions are really hard, I find, in a foreign language - if you misunderstand one word that's it, you've missed the person's wee funny comment, and the moment is lost. It's no biggie, but (especially in these corona times) when that happens every time you talk to someone it's a bit depressing.
Other than that, I just like being in the UK! I like the way it looks, I like the weather, the food - I like home. We went abroad in the first place because DH had to move for work. We'd already lived in his home country of Switzerland for a year a long while back and I'd hated it then and told him sorry but I want to settle in the UK, and he'd agreed, and then when our kids were little he lost his job and when he couldn't immediately find a new job he started looking in the German speaking world - when he found something I, well, I might have been able to veto it but he would have spent the entire rest of our lives complaining about how his career was hamstrung by the UK, so I thought let's move and at least if I have to give my job up I will see a lot more of the kids... and it's been OK as far as it goes but I didn't exactly arrive here excited about the prospect of life in Germany, I'm still not, I still like the UK much better and is lots of things from there. Is that U? Do we need to be positive about bloody everything? I've found in my younger life that I ended up doing jobs and courses and stuff because I thought it would be good for me and I often ignored the wee voice inside that went "this is shite" and just doubled down and tried harder, and all that ended up happening as a result is that I spent more time doing shit I don't like. AIBU in saying that sometimes you just don't enjoy some things and all the effort in the world won't significantly shift your feelings, and that's probably actually fine?

Beyond Chocolate: Understanding Swiss Culture, Oertig-Davidson, Margaret

This book?

You should have said you love Germany but you just miss the UK, not that you don't like Germany. There's a difference between expressing an opinion and being rude.

Focus on the positive (like family in the UK, certain foods you miss, places from your childhood, etc). Basic tact dictates you shouldn't be negative about their country because it's rude and insulting and if somebody said they hated the UK I'd consider it rude too even though everyone is entitled to an opinion.

It's not about freedom of opinion. It's about being rude.

tatianabis

I think OP was just saying there were different social norms about around school-gate(or nursery/gate) chatter whilst waiting to collect. Rather than she was ignoring friendship opportunities.

I would pass the time of day with what I see as social niceties (England), where we can wave at people say 'hi how are you, oh how lovely' type chats all the time, but not necessarily be best friends, rather than anticipate full on invites for coffee on every 'good morning' exchange I have.

The same way that you can say hello, talk about the weather and general chit chat with someone you see every day at same time on train station platform after a while but not necessarily act upon making a close friend out of that person. It might be a peculiar English reticence? My Irish side of the family make best friends of everybody, once spoken to and a bit of a craic (I don't know if I use that term right) then they are potentially in their very wide social circle !

It is always better I think to describe oneself as homesick or missing home, rather than not liking a place. Though I think it is also a bit rude to say that of course one is unfulfilled as a parent at home, I'd be tempted to make a snarky remark that such an attitude didn't reflect well on the culture (though I wouldn't.)

The language issue is a difficult one, it is very isolating to have to work to make casual conversation - I have to work at it in my own language as I'm very introverted and also having that extra layer of effort would make it such an energy suck. And people vary enormously in their ability to pick up and converse in other languages. Being home with kids in the past year is also a trial in terms of chances to practice.

I don't see why the OP needs to spare the feelings of a bunch of strangers on an internet forum, to be honest. You might not tell your actual friends that you hate their native country with a passion, but it's perfectly obvious to any reasonable person that not everyone is suited to everywhere. I lived in the UAE, in both Abu Dhabi and Dubai, and am genuinely baffled when people are so enthusiastic about living there, because I thought it was absolutely awful in every possible respect, to the point where we both quit our jobs and just left. I also left the US because I didn't like living there. Other people would think I was crazy.

@VegetarianDeathCult

I don't see why the OP needs to spare the feelings of a bunch of strangers on an internet forum, to be honest. You might not tell your actual friends that you hate their native country with a passion, but it's perfectly obvious to any reasonable person that not everyone is suited to everywhere. I lived in the UAE, in both Abu Dhabi and Dubai, and am genuinely baffled when people are so enthusiastic about living there, because I thought it was absolutely awful in every possible respect, to the point where we both quit our jobs and just left. I also left the US because I didn't like living there. Other people would think I was crazy.

I am more baffled why people think you are crazy for not liking U.S. I thought they would expect it

Just about everyone say this

You sound really self-aware. You know what makes you happy and what you like and you're currently not having it.

I think it's refreshing to have that level of awareness. Although do agree that being a SAHM anywhere can be difficult. I've not liked it and can't wait to go back to work. Mainly for socialisation and colleague banter, as well as purpose and challenge.

But no, I'd not like to move abroad either for some of the reasons you say and YANBU to express that.

I think OP was just saying there were different social norms about around school-gate(or nursery/gate) chatter whilst waiting to collect. Rather than she was ignoring friendship opportunities.

I understood what she was saying, but the upshot was that rather than using the misunderstanding as a positive & taking up those opportunities to build friendships - she says she just learnt to 'shut up'. It would also have helped immeasurably with practising the language.

If she'd built on those invitations and done hobbies and voluntary work as suggested, she could have nice group around her by now, and be more comfortable speaking German into the bargain.

She says in her OP that her 'positive social interactions' in the UK were 'with work colleagues' and 'saying hello to the lady at the checkout in Tesco's'. So I wonder if she hasn't really got the social knack. Fine when you're in your home country and old friends and family are around, but when you're not - lack of sociability = no support network.

You'd be amazed @Blueberries0112. I remember an elderly neighbour where we lived first in NJ saying 'You guys must feel SO LUCKY to get to live here!' just after we'd arrived. I remember it because I think I just smiled and nodded politely (particularly as this area, just off the Jersey Turnpike was not conspicuously beautiful, and within a day or two of arriving, I was crossing at a light to get the bus into NY and a man leaned out of his car window and yelled 'WALK, WHITE TRASH!' at me), and I clearly wasn't animated enough, because then her husband started: 'You must really feel blessed to have got a visa!'

And yes, when it became clear to some people that we were leaving voluntarily especially to some people who knew I'd passed on a big scholarship at an Ivy League university it got quite strange.

A minority of people, but in all the other places I've lived, I've never had people require me to be grateful I was allowed in.

@HappyWipings

You're entitled to dislike whatever you please!

My best guess is that your wording offended them , if you'd have said that you were homesick you may have had a different response.

Yup. First comment has nailed it

@VegetarianDeathCult

You'd be amazed *@Blueberries0112*. I remember an elderly neighbour where we lived first in NJ saying 'You guys must feel SO LUCKY to get to live here!' just after we'd arrived. I remember it because I think I just smiled and nodded politely (particularly as this area, just off the Jersey Turnpike was not conspicuously beautiful, and within a day or two of arriving, I was crossing at a light to get the bus into NY and a man leaned out of his car window and yelled 'WALK, WHITE TRASH!' at me), and I clearly wasn't animated enough, because then her husband started: 'You must really feel blessed to have got a visa!'

And yes, when it became clear to some people that we were leaving voluntarily especially to some people who knew I'd passed on a big scholarship at an Ivy League university it got quite strange.

A minority of people, but in all the other places I've lived, I've never had people require me to be grateful I was allowed in.

All those comments are not surprising, but To be fair my sister is counting down the days she will get her visa and move to France. So if anyone told her in France she must feel lucky to move to France, she will tell them “I absolutely am lucky!”

I'm a bit surprised by all those people who live 5-10 years in a foreign country and never get around to learning the language. Especially for brief and simple interactions like talking to the cashier. Obviously the language is not everything but it has a huge impact. I lived before in a country where I didnt speak the language (didn't learn it as I was there on a temporary basis) and then I moved to a country where I do speak the languag, and it made a huge difference to how easy it is to make friends and to navigate shops/work/friends.

Aside from that I think what pp's have said is correct, yes you can dislike whatever you want but you have to be aware of your audience. If I say here I wouldn't like to live in the UK, I'm sure people would be offended. Even though I have plenty of valid reasons why I wouldn't like living there.

PS - I won't list those reasons as I feel it would derail the thread so don't bother asking please.

I'm a bit surprised by all those people who live 5-10 years in a foreign country and never get around to learning the language.

Sadly, it's very common in my experience.

I think you can absolutely love and hate things....for example, I absolutely loved living in France and Switzerland. I now have the opposite problem in that having come back to the UK - I absolutely loath it. I mean I thought that I would like it but in fact, I really dont especially not with kids. It's fab when you're young but ......... I guess that I am entited to my own opinion but honestly, my family/friends got pretty sick and tired of hearing how things are better in....si now I just keep my mouth shut ;-)

if you'd have said that you were homesick you may have had a different response

The thing is, being homesick and not liking a country are two very different problems. I don't miss home so much as to call myself homesick, but I also don't like where I live. I have no issue telling people this, although I am less direct when talking to Germans about it! Like a PP said, being able to voice your opinion, especially a negative one, it's important OP. We're led to believe that because on paper it all looks good, then we have to be positive. It's okay not to like it too.

5 years probably isn't enough to become perfectly fluent in a language unless you speak it 100% of the time, and, as others have noted, you will still be missing out on a number of cultural references. But it should be long enough to make most daily interactions easy enough.

And if a German invites you to come over for Kaffee und Kuchen then accept and reciprocate (unless you think they are a psychopath of course)!

I then got loads of comments that I wasn't trying hard enough, that of course as a SAHM I must be unfulfilled and I should have done voluntary work and found hobbies so I could make friends and so on.

I'm certain that if a German SAHM living in the UK posted a similar dilemma on Mumsnet, she'd get exactly the same responses. I've seen similar comments on here directed to native SAHMs who say they are unhappy for whatever reason. They're stock 'agony aunt' responses to anyone who says they are lonely or bored, but they don't delve into anyone's individual circumstances.

I have a friend who moved to Germany and one who moved to Switzerland.
They are both now fluent in the language although not as fluent as their children. I don’t think either will come back to the UK as they seem quite settled. I know one was horrified when her husband suggested they move either back to the UK or onto another country.

What they found was they were more drawn to making friends from the “immigrant” community so they have friends who are Brazilian/Italian/Russian etc as well as British and other English speaking countries. It didn’t matter that they weren’t completely fluent in the native language. They both got by initially with some sort of sign language and pidgin French/Spanish that they remembered from school.
They both felt they were treated differently by the people who were born in the respective countries because they were immigrants. Or maybe because they aren’t fluent enough in the language to get the nuances and in jokes.

Exactly this! I know someone in this precise situation. Knowing when to go with your gut feel is really important. Of course you’re allowed not to like things!

This is a really interesting topic for me, as I have family in both countries, and can sympathise with some of what you say. People don't realise just how enormously different Germans and German society are from the UK and British people. One of the biggest differences is in social interaction. Germans tend not to do the acquaintances thing, where a gang of you will go down to a bar, restaurant or to an impromptu party. I'm not sure if you are in DE or CH, but if you are in the latter, then it's like Germany x 100 - Germans think that the Swiss are incredibly up themselves and snobby...

People also tend not to invite you to their home unless they know you very well. Certainly the more south you go there, the worse it gets. There is a really strange thing - shared with some Scandinavian cultures, where someone will have 2 or 3 close friends, and perhaps, a slightly wider circle of people who they may invite to a birthday party, but certainly not go for a drink or a meal with. You may get promoted from the wider circle if one of the other friends dies or moves away...

And socialisation is very much class bound - from a country that makes a lot of fuss about British class politics, Germany has a similar, but much more nuanced form of snobbery, mainly based on what you earn, your position at work, and your physical possessions.

I've not gone into the whole du/Sie thing, which is an absolute minefield...

All of this said, you would almost certainly get a similar reaction if you came on Mumsnet and said "I am German and I hate living in the UK". Germans are very defensive - as are British people - and regard criticism of their way of life and take it as something personal.

I lived in Russia for 2 years a long time ago. I speak the language but what a grim and ghastly experience that was.

Now in 21 st year in Germany. Usually find Germans are keen to find out what you think of their country. Like most people, they really want others to like their country as much as they do. They also are great believers in Heimweh (homesickness) and expect foreigners to be experiencing it. I guess, as other posters have said, they would have been far more understanding of you missing the UK than saying you didn’t like Germany. No harm in using tact and diplomacy.

Of course you’re allowed not to like things, but if it turns out you have to stay in Germany you’ll be happier if you can find a way to like it there.

I am a foreigner here, with an English husband. I’ve lived here for over 15 years and I must admit - I don’t really like it here. I don’t like the food (although somewhat got used to it), I hate the weather, and don’t get me started on medical system... I have some good English friends - but they are my friends because they are not “typically English” :) Don’t expect me to give you a definition of a typical English person ) A lot of foreigners will understand me haha! We are not planning on moving just yet as we have young children who are in school. I wouldn’t want to interrupt their education, they are doing pretty well. But when time comes to retire, I hope we’ll be able to move to another country. I know I would be willing to explore and to experience new places! But I don’t see myself retiring here, that works be my nightmare. Sorry, I hope I haven’t offended anyone by not liking your country :) We are still allowed to have an opinion, aren’t we? ;)

Aw I feel your pain. I had to move to Aberdeen for work. Confided in a colleague about how miserable I was (first time away from home, family, boyfriend). The first time I went out socially with her she introduced me to everyone as “This is Clare. She hates Aberdeen” 🤣 Spent the whole night trying to explain.