Am I "allowed" to just not like certain things?

[Anycrispsleft]

I have lived in Germany for about 5 years and I'm planning to leave in an year or two. We have primary school aged kids, and I went on a German parenting forum the other day to ask a quick question about primary school assessment and ended up mentioning when asked that I was planning to leave Germany, and when pressed, admitted that I don't like it here. I then got loads of comments that I wasn't trying hard enough, that of course as a SAHM I must be unfulfilled and I should have done voluntary work and found hobbies so I could make friends and so on.

Maybe I should have done all that but I don't think it would have helped. I do know a few people from the kids being in school - nice people who I like - but hanging out with people while speaking German isn't fun to me at all, it's like a German class, and after an hour or so I'm knackered and desperate to leave. I was always quite an introvert and I think in the UK I got most of my positive social interactions with work colleagues and just as you deal with strangers through your day, saying hello to the lady at the checkout in Tesco's or whatever. Those kind of small scale interactions are really hard, I find, in a foreign language - if you misunderstand one word that's it, you've missed the person's wee funny comment, and the moment is lost. It's no biggie, but (especially in these corona times) when that happens every time you talk to someone it's a bit depressing.
Other than that, I just like being in the UK! I like the way it looks, I like the weather, the food - I like home. We went abroad in the first place because DH had to move for work. We'd already lived in his home country of Switzerland for a year a long while back and I'd hated it then and told him sorry but I want to settle in the UK, and he'd agreed, and then when our kids were little he lost his job and when he couldn't immediately find a new job he started looking in the German speaking world - when he found something I, well, I might have been able to veto it but he would have spent the entire rest of our lives complaining about how his career was hamstrung by the UK, so I thought let's move and at least if I have to give my job up I will see a lot more of the kids... and it's been OK as far as it goes but I didn't exactly arrive here excited about the prospect of life in Germany, I'm still not, I still like the UK much better and is lots of things from there. Is that U? Do we need to be positive about bloody everything? I've found in my younger life that I ended up doing jobs and courses and stuff because I thought it would be good for me and I often ignored the wee voice inside that went "this is shite" and just doubled down and tried harder, and all that ended up happening as a result is that I spent more time doing shit I don't like. AIBU in saying that sometimes you just don't enjoy some things and all the effort in the world won't significantly shift your feelings, and that's probably actually fine?

Maybe it’s a German thing
DH is German and if me or the dc don’t like anything, from Mushrooms to camping it’s because we haven’t “given it a proper go”
Not liking things is seen as some sort of failure

Oh and following my previous post, the fact you ask if you're 'allowed' to like and dislike things says it all. Allowed by whom? Who IS the mistress of your destiny, if not you?

Do you want to have 'I didn't realise I didn't need to ask permission to live', on your gravestone?

Of course switching from passivity to assertiveness will surprise other people and demand adjustments from them, that they might find uncomfortable and then you, the consequences of their discomfort. Welcome to autonomy.

I do understand about the little interactions thing though, although I generally find German people friendly when you get to know them they dont tend to have those little superficial short chats we have here. I live in Yorkshire and you can’t get round the supermarket with at least 3 or 4 interactions with complete strangers. I find Spain is similar
I think Germany is the only place I have been told off by shop assistants and waitresses

Being born deaf and not really fluent at any language even my mother’s tongue (people still struggle with me as I am to them),

I say it is definitely a language barrier.
You are more comfortable with your native language. Even if you are doing well with German language.

I always wanted to visit German as that’s where most of my mother’s ancestors were from (they left around in the 1700’s plus my female haplogroup is from German/Prussia

I lived abroad for 5 years as a teenager and felt very similar. People saying you should be good enough at the language now....well, some people would be and others wouldn't. For me, I was very shy and so I never felt confident enough to just speak another language knowing I was making lots of mistakes and that meant I never learnt how to speak to fluent level (though my understanding and reading was probably close). For some people that kind of thing is really tough and that's ok.

@GnomeDePlume

I totally get what you say about how tiring speaking another language can be. We lived in the Netherlands for a similar period. Every interaction had to be thought through in advance in case conversation veered off piste.

Dutch is a lot more difficult than German, though, I believe?

I think the issue is your language barriers, Germans can be patient but if you still struggle after 5 years I think the patience is wearing low
It's more complicated than that, I think. I've been a foreigner for more than a decade where I live, and some people just talk to me as they would to another local, and have a conversation just like everyone else, while others, on hearing my accent, start shouting, using sign language, or speaking a sort of troglodyte version of their usual speech. Sometimes they tell me I can't speak the language, and insist on using their very poor English, before I've said a single word.
The OP hasn't actually made a single criticism of Germany; she just doesn't like being a foreigner.

I know a bit how you feel. You just want to feel at home.

Not the same, but I moved to a different part of the UK with my husband (for his job) 7 years ago, and despite trying really hard, I still don’t like it or feel at home. The thought of staying here for the rest of my life makes me feel really down.

There's also the fact that many Germans of the sort of age you presumably are love any excuse to speak English, so a lack of German isn't necessarily a huge barrier. My German is virtually native-level (combination of a lucky aptitude for languages, a fantastic German teacher at school, a degree in it and now having lived here most of my adult life) and I find it rather tedious when I meet people and being English is The Thing about me, but that can also be turned to your advantage. What's certainly true is that in many parts of Germany people don't move around much and aren't practised in absorbing new people into their friendship circles - this is different in a faster-moving, more international city environment but if you are more rural or even in a smaller town or city there may be that sense of being kept at arm's length a PP describes. You have to get quite lucky to make a real enduring friend.

One thing I've found disconcerting is the difference in the framework of expectations you have around how a typical life will go and how they're very different here - so you miss out on some and have to get your head round others. So no nativity plays, but big Einschulung. Fewer clubs and fewer organised playdates, instead the defining experience of children going off to the park/shop on their own with fiends, possibly earlier on the part of the German parents than you feel comfortable with. Massive Konfirmationen but much less fuss made over leaving primary. And so on and so forth. Tuning into that is an effort, again and again. But one worth making.

*obviously the dc go off with friends, not fiends

I was quite careful not to insult the country or the people... I don't actually dislike Germany, there's nothing wrong with the place, I just don't have a great time here. I wouldn't even have said anything but as soon as I said I'm trying to decide on remaining in Germany or returning to Scotland I got jumped on. Why would I want to leave etc. I should probably not have attempted to answer that question

I did post in German - I speak and write German to about C1 level, quite high, and I can chat away, but it's still a constant effort. I'm sure I could improve that situation with more effort, but everything in life takes energy and I'd rather spend mine on stuff I actually want to be able to do.

DH and I are both British/Swiss dual nationals, for those that asked, so pretty cushy situation as regards where we can live. DH's job is doable in the UK, but he's just landed a new job and I can't see him wanting to go back to the UK any time soon. And it would be London, and I don't want to go back to London, I want to return to Scotland. Which limits job opportunities for both of us a bit, but if I'm going to have to retrain and start something new (which I will have to) I thought I might as well go back to Scotland- I like it in Scotland, and the houses are a hell of a lot cheaper.

To answer your OP, you're definitely "allowed" not to like something... we're not living in a thought-dictatorship! But when your dislike includes an entire country and is expressed to the inhabitants of that county, you can expect a frosty response. It's a bit like walking into a restaurant, sitting down and ordering and, mid-way through the meal, turning round to all the regulars and saying "I really don't like it here. It's dreadful" when they're happily enjoying their food.

YANBU to prefer your home country but YABU to say you dislike Germany on a German forum and not expect a negative response.

TBH reading your post the things that are making you unhappy are the mental strain of living in a foreign language and the alienation of living somewhere unfamiliar. I can understand both those things. We have a second home in my DHs country of origin and I still experience them there, even after 28 years but these feelings would be the same anywhere in the world. It's unreasonable to pin your dislike of them on Germany. It would probably be the same in Hungary or Malaysia or Peru or even an unfamiliar English speaking culture. .

You seem discontented with a lot of your life choices. Are you projecting your unhappiness with yourself outwards?

instead the defining experience of children going off to the park/shop on their own with fiends, possibly earlier on the part of the German parents than you feel comfortable with

Yes, well I've told DS he needs to be at least ten before he goes anywhere with fiends, German or otherwise.

you are entitled to live where you want and like what you like.

regarding the forum, it could be that the people responding were trying to help. if someone said to me that they hated living in my town because of xyz, what could I say? either 1. - yes, what a terrible place is it. no matter what you do you will always be unfulfilled here - i wish i could move with you but instead i will stay, living in this rotten existence for the rest of my days or 2. - imo, the most obvious choice - well on the flip side there is abc or did you try this or that which i really like? if you did that maybe things would be better.

if you were speaking to a close friend you could maybe expect a bit more sympathy but even so, you would likely be best to speak to a close friend in the UK

I think Germany is the only place I have been told off by shop assistants and waitresses

I know, right? I'm scared of the checkout ladies in Kaufland. I always want to apologise when I can't catch the groceries as fast as they throw them at me

Not liking things is seen as some sort of failure

Skiing. We know someone who is big into skiing and he seems to see it as a personal insult that I've tried skiing twice and don't want to try it again. My DH tore his ACL skiing last year and had an operation and crutches for like 4 months. Part of me was thinking, well at least now I have a decent excuse to get out of it!

or to those of you also suffering from language barriers and fish out of water feelings, you have my sympathy.

I did post in German - I speak and write German to about C1 level, quite high, and I can chat away, but it's still a constant effort. I'm sure I could improve that situation with more effort, but everything in life takes energy and I'd rather spend mine on stuff I actually want to be able to do.

That's very short-sighted - if you just put effort in with German you'd get to a level where life would be so much less effort - leaving you free to do the things you want.

Refusing to put the effort in simply maintains a situation in which you are indefinitely having to make a higher level of effort than is comfortable.

I'm really curious about how many of the people who are saying "5 years? Pfft, you should be speaking German like it's your mother tongue by now." have actually learnt a foreign language to that level of fluency or even lived abroad any real length of time.

Because actually, it's hard. Really hard. And it doesn't just happen. You have to take lessons and work at it, and practise it intensively in your daily life and even then it doesn't work out for everyone.

And even if you're passingly fluent, and can do all the day-to-day stuff without any trouble, and laugh at jokes in shops and chat at the school gates, it doesn't mean that an in depth conversation at a party isn't exhausting. Following what others are saying and answering their questions, and then suddenly realising that you've been concentrating so hard on that that you haven't asked them anything about themselves in 20 minutes.

And that's just the language. There's all the social references you don't get as well, because you didn't grow up watching 1980s German TV and eating Knödeln und Eszet Schnitten. Have you never looked at a Buzzfeed "50 things all 90s kids will..." list, just to discover that it means 90s kids in the US and means nothing to you?

It's just not as easy as chatting with a bunch of people who grew up in the same place as you, speaking the same language.

I think it's really important as an expat to accept when you don't 'click' with a place. Often you can't even explain it, that doesn't make it invalid.

I also lived in Germany for six years, I enjoyed the first couple years but found it hard to really love it. Finally I accepted I didn't want to stay any longer, luckily DH was willing to move back to London, and we are much happier here. Neither of us are from the UK but we both love London more than our home countries! So it just made sense to come to a place we both enjoy.

Is your DH going to be willing to leave in two years though? You might be in Germany a long time still, I'd look into working or studying online while you work it out.

I also hate the 'you should be fluent' brigade. Why is it so hard to understand that not everyone learns languages easily? We accept that some people are not good at maths or sport or art. Some of us struggle with languages.

Anyway if OP is C1 then she has done well. You only need B1 to get German citizenship.

I'm really curious about how many of the people who are saying "5 years? Pfft, you should be speaking German like it's your mother tongue by now." have actually learnt a foreign language to that level of fluency or even lived abroad any real length of time.

I must admit, my first thought was that, after 5 years, the OP should not be struggling with the language. That's based on my own experience of living abroad and mastering a much harder language in less than 5 years. (I can compare the two because I am pretty competent in German too.) However, I was very motivated to learn, which many people aren't. I have also always found language learning quite easy, and I accept that some people don't. So I will concede that it's more complicated than it might first appear, but I can understand people feeling surprised that the language is still am issue after that amount of time.

WRT the OP, I think it's fine not to like living somewhere, but that can be complicated in an intercultural relationship. My DH hates the UK, but we have mutually agreed to live here because I'm the main breadwinner and there are more employment opportunities for me here. We also believe that it's probably best for our dd while she is still at school. I feel bad for DH, especially this year because he hasn't been able to travel as much as he usually does, and that's what helps him stay sane. However, the alternatives are not straightforward. It's likely that we will split our time differently when we have retired.

DH does not tend to share his views of the UK with many people, as people do tend to take offence if he says that he isn't happy living here. In his case, it isn't homesickness as such - he wouldn't choose to go back to his home country, but rather to the third country where we were living when we first met. I can totally relate to this, as I miss it too. However, not many people like to hear that the country where they're living isn't the best place to live, so DH mostly keeps his thoughts to himself.

I've been learning German for 40 years, 16 spent in German-speaking countries, and I still feel I'm clumsy in it though I'm easily C1 as well. English is my mother tongue but I have not lived in an English-speaking country for 30 years and probably never will again. I'm fluent in a couple of other languages, but I understand first-hand how gruelling it is to live every interaction in your non-native language. Having to look up detailed vocabulary for your plumbing/car/insurance problem before you even dare pick up the phone; as PPs have said, knowing you're missing a degree of the banter/cultural references. Every time I'm in an English-speaking country I can't get over how easy contact and everyday life is!

Also, having lived in several places, I can completely relate that some feel like home and some don't and there's no explaining it and no accounting for it. And everyone likes to hear nice things about the place they live and no one wants to hear criticism. You are certainly allowed to like or dislike a place or a situation; just don't bang on too much about disliking it because over the long run that gets very boring. I'm not saying this is you, OP, but there's nothing, absolutely nothing, worse or more toxic than a whiny expat.

Anyway, I hope you and your husband can find somewhere in future that suits you both, but it may take compromise on both your parts.

I'm fluent in German and i occasionally have one of those "fuck, how do i get this accross?" moments. Not that often though.

TBH OP, the impression i get is that you don't not like Germany (although you'Re not giving the impression you've tried that much) but that you want to be in Scotland. You don't want to be in Switzerland or Germany or London. You want to be in Scotland. And that is a whole other thing than not liking some of the things about being in Germany.

I find that a quick laugh and a shrug at the speed at which you're expected to put things in your trolley here goes a long way to getting on with shop staff. Cultural expectations are very different in various parts of Germany and if neither of you is local it can be a pain.

The easiest way to get an "in" i found was the children though.

You're a bit stymied by your desire for Scotland and your DH not being able to do his job from there. So you're probably going to have to compromise on some things. Or you could get a job in Scotland and ask him to follow you?

For those not in the know - (and i know that people who aren't involved in language learning/teaching or whatever often aren't) - C1 is competent, above the level required for citizenship as pp said.

OP, I think this MN forum is a much better one to talk about what may feel like marked differences (and mental strain of living in a different country, effort if speaking another language), than the one you have accidentally mentioned them on

I'm interested to hear or read about what other people like about living in a different country or dislike from the perspectives. The same way I find it fascinating what other nationalities find unusual about living in parts of England, Wales, Scotland or Ireland.

I have a Swiss friend- who finds English over politeness, vacillating and "verbal hedging" (his words/viewpoint ) somewhat frustrating. He also can sound accidentally rude when talking to bar staff as he's quite blunt about asking to try a sip of a specialist beer first before deciding which pint he'll have, in sending back food or products he is unhappy with quality of, and of jumping hovering queues (Noooooooooo!!! social faux pas!!!) that he can't work out where they start from or why it's a horizontal queue of no particular order rather than a straight one. He'll also accidentally jump night bus queues

He describes it as expecting better customer services and His experience that Swiss people being more direct and with more logical queueing! Of course people aren't the same in each nation but there's general underlying themes sometimes about social behaviour that can differ from place to place (or culture)

I love to hear from his viewpoint about some of cultural norms he observes He's equally positive as jokingly negative! I've found out so much about what we take for granted but do automatically that seem strange to others, sometimes it's even a local norm or phrase.

I'd love to hear more on this thread- in a respectful way- about the things that can be a challenge to get used to in Germany for some people or in other countries or about U.K.

Interesting stuff...

I've lived in Germany for 6 years, still learning the language. I love my area and the friendly people. Not happy with not being able to buy Monster Munch and Malted Milks, don't get me started on the tea bags!
Why can't I buy Paracetamol and cough medicine in a supermarket?
What keeps me happy is knowing I can go and stay in my London flat about 4 times a year, though I haven't been for over a year.
If you're near Flensburg let's meet for a chat (in English)