Am I "allowed" to just not like certain things?

[Anycrispsleft]

I have lived in Germany for about 5 years and I'm planning to leave in an year or two. We have primary school aged kids, and I went on a German parenting forum the other day to ask a quick question about primary school assessment and ended up mentioning when asked that I was planning to leave Germany, and when pressed, admitted that I don't like it here. I then got loads of comments that I wasn't trying hard enough, that of course as a SAHM I must be unfulfilled and I should have done voluntary work and found hobbies so I could make friends and so on.

Maybe I should have done all that but I don't think it would have helped. I do know a few people from the kids being in school - nice people who I like - but hanging out with people while speaking German isn't fun to me at all, it's like a German class, and after an hour or so I'm knackered and desperate to leave. I was always quite an introvert and I think in the UK I got most of my positive social interactions with work colleagues and just as you deal with strangers through your day, saying hello to the lady at the checkout in Tesco's or whatever. Those kind of small scale interactions are really hard, I find, in a foreign language - if you misunderstand one word that's it, you've missed the person's wee funny comment, and the moment is lost. It's no biggie, but (especially in these corona times) when that happens every time you talk to someone it's a bit depressing.
Other than that, I just like being in the UK! I like the way it looks, I like the weather, the food - I like home. We went abroad in the first place because DH had to move for work. We'd already lived in his home country of Switzerland for a year a long while back and I'd hated it then and told him sorry but I want to settle in the UK, and he'd agreed, and then when our kids were little he lost his job and when he couldn't immediately find a new job he started looking in the German speaking world - when he found something I, well, I might have been able to veto it but he would have spent the entire rest of our lives complaining about how his career was hamstrung by the UK, so I thought let's move and at least if I have to give my job up I will see a lot more of the kids... and it's been OK as far as it goes but I didn't exactly arrive here excited about the prospect of life in Germany, I'm still not, I still like the UK much better and is lots of things from there. Is that U? Do we need to be positive about bloody everything? I've found in my younger life that I ended up doing jobs and courses and stuff because I thought it would be good for me and I often ignored the wee voice inside that went "this is shite" and just doubled down and tried harder, and all that ended up happening as a result is that I spent more time doing shit I don't like. AIBU in saying that sometimes you just don't enjoy some things and all the effort in the world won't significantly shift your feelings, and that's probably actually fine?

I'm really curious about how many of the people who are saying "5 years? Pfft, you should be speaking German like it's your mother tongue by now." have actually learnt a foreign language to that level of fluency or even lived abroad any real length of time.

I speak 3 languages and have lived abroad. HTH

@TatianaBis

I'm really curious about how many of the people who are saying "5 years? Pfft, you should be speaking German like it's your mother tongue by now." have actually learnt a foreign language to that level of fluency or even lived abroad any real length of time.

I speak 3 languages and have lived abroad. HTH

Well you get a medal then. It's dead shiny.

You are 100% allowed not to like something - even if it's living in another country. If people are offended by your opinion, they'll get over it...

My sympathies OP. I understand how hard it is, and you’re allowed to moan whenever you want (although perhaps not on a German forum from now on ).

I’ve lived in Germany for 2 years, currently speak the language at B2 level and I completely understand where you’re coming from. Germany is not an easy country to live in if you don’t love it. Nothing wrong with it per se.

I didn’t want to move here, it had never been on the cards. I wanted to say no up to the day I got on the plane. I have a fantastic job that I absolutely love, my career is progressing beautifully and none of the opportunities I have here would be available in any other country. For my career and the industry I’m in, this is the place to be. I should be positive, and I am. But I also complain and still grieve the happier life I could live somewhere else.

I have lots of non-German friends, and they’re the ones who keep me going. I’ve made all the efforts learning the language and feeling more comfortable with the culture but man, do I still hate it. It’s nothing to do with effort. Sometimes you just don’t settle somewhere, and it will never be home.

I have moved countries several times and German is my 7th language, so it’s not like I’m not open minded enough. I’d define myself as more international than the nationality I actually am. The first day I lived in the UK, it already felt like home. I didn’t feel the need to socialise with people from my home country, I just wanted to live and experience the British culture. Germany is completely the opposite. I’m coping, everything is fine, but the thought of finding a permanent job here that I can’t turn down, after finishing my current contract, fills me with dread. I know I’ll be okay if that happens, but I really hope a job magically pops up in the UK and I have an excuse to leave.

Hang in there OP, you’re not alone. Is moving to a third country definitely not a possibility for you and DH?

Well you get a medal then. It's dead shiny.

You did ask. 🤷🏼‍♀️

The first day I lived in the UK, it already felt like home. I didn’t feel the need to socialise with people from my home country, I just wanted to live and experience the British culture.

I think it’s certainly true that some countries feel like home from the minute you set foot in them.

“TatianaBis
^I'm really curious about how many of the people who are saying "5 years? Pfft, you should be speaking German like it's your mother tongue by now." have actually learnt a foreign language to that level of fluency or even lived abroad any real length of time.”

You must have dual language when you were young. Learning a language is a lot more complicated than you think. If you think it is easy, try learning American Sign Language - not the English version, the actual language itself. on’t worry, you probably won’t struggle with it but it will teach you a lot about languages.

Yes, I felt that way when I moved to London, literally within a day I just felt totally at home.

In France it was a bit harder to integrate but I did fall in love with it and could see myself living there permanently.

In Germany everything seemed great on paper but I just felt permanently awkward and like I would never really belong there no matter how long we stayed.

Everyone I know who's lived in multiple countries has this range of experiences, I don't know anyone who's felt completely at home everywhere. And that's definitely ok!

It also really depends on why you move somewhere in the first place. The OP said she didn't really want to go but felt she had to give it a try. I'm in the same position.
That's totally different to moving somewhere because you have always loved the culture, the food, the scenery.
I agree with a pp who said on paper Germany is fantastic. That's true, it is. But unfortunately being great on paper doesn't make you love it. Also, if you don't love it then it's extremely hard to motivate yourself to try harder with language etc.
Lastly it depends on your situation. I'm a SAHM because basically I'm not qualified to do my former career here and because my husband travels a lot normally for his jet setting job. The childcare where I live is fucking abysmal and because we have no family here I don't have a lot of choice. My children are in the German school system and I've tried to make friends with other mums but there isn't much opportunity for other social interaction with german people. So my language hasn't progressed amazingly well. I imagine if you work and have a love for the culture it's easier because you have the enthusiasm and the opportunity.
There are a host of reasons why it's not always that easy.
It's never easy for anyone who moves to another country.
OP YANBU

@Hidinginstaircupboard

OP, I think this MN forum is a much better one to talk about what may feel like marked differences (and mental strain of living in a different country, effort if speaking another language), than the one you have accidentally mentioned them on

I'm interested to hear or read about what other people like about living in a different country or dislike from the perspectives. The same way I find it fascinating what other nationalities find unusual about living in parts of England, Wales, Scotland or Ireland.

I have a Swiss friend- who finds English over politeness, vacillating and "verbal hedging" (his words/viewpoint ) somewhat frustrating. He also can sound accidentally rude when talking to bar staff as he's quite blunt about asking to try a sip of a specialist beer first before deciding which pint he'll have, in sending back food or products he is unhappy with quality of, and of jumping hovering queues (Noooooooooo!!! social faux pas!!!) that he can't work out where they start from or why it's a horizontal queue of no particular order rather than a straight one. He'll also accidentally jump night bus queues

He describes it as expecting better customer services and His experience that Swiss people being more direct and with more logical queueing! Of course people aren't the same in each nation but there's general underlying themes sometimes about social behaviour that can differ from place to place (or culture)

I love to hear from his viewpoint about some of cultural norms he observes He's equally positive as jokingly negative! I've found out so much about what we take for granted but do automatically that seem strange to others, sometimes it's even a local norm or phrase.

I'd love to hear more on this thread- in a respectful way- about the things that can be a challenge to get used to in Germany for some people or in other countries or about U.K.

Interesting stuff...

That's funny because my DH and his family I would say are very similar to British in all that politeness stuff, talking around the subject and so on... at least in comparison with Germans, I mean they have made that comparison (I wouldn't dare!) It's always hard though to know how much you can generalise from whatever people you know... there's an interesting book kicking around (btw thank you to the PP who recommended the Paris book, I will seek that out!) - Understanding the Swiss, by Margaret Örtig-Davidson. She has this concept that British are like peaches - soft and sweet on the outside, but with a hard nut that is difficult to crack - where the Swiss are more like coconuts, hard on the outside but once you break through the shell they're soft... I think that goes for a lot of Germans I've met here too. It caused me problems in the beginning because I would make what I think of as polite conversation with one of the Kindergarten parents and they'd think I was making a big play to be friends, then I'd find myself getting invited to coffee and I didn't get why, our kids weren't friends, hurt feelings on both sides... I've learned to shut up now One of them was one of the dads! He's a bit more chatty though, seemed to take it in the spirit it was intended. He takes the piss out of me about Brexit whenever I see him

I've lived in 5 different countries. I loved my time in each of them, and had to learn a new language in 3.
I went by choice and reveled in being part of another country and culture.

BUT I always knew that in the end I woudl come back tot he UK. Uk is my base, my home, and it is where I feel most at ease.

But in each place, if asked I would never say I was leaving because I didn't like it, I would say I was missing my family, so even though it had been a great time, it was time to go home. I found people 100% understood that.

I could have written your post Ahmose. In addition, the jobs that I'm interested in training for either have massively different qualifications in the UK vs Germany or really depend on mastering the language. In theory it would be great to study here in preparation for going back to the UK. But I was thinking about secondary science teaching, and the German secondary school teaching degrees are 3 years long and take school leavers! It's more like primary school teacher training in the UK, it's a degree in teaching the subject, not a degree in the subject, then a degree in teaching. It's the kind of thing that I just didn't think about when I left the UK. Of course it could be different, everything could be different, but still you get tripped up.

@Bananalanacake I would love to do that but we are literally as far from Flensburg as it is possible to get and still be in Germany! This is a picture from my balcony - over the water there is Switzerland

@Blueberries0112

“TatianaBis ^I'm really curious about how many of the people who are saying "5 years? Pfft, you should be speaking German like it's your mother tongue by now." have actually learnt a foreign language to that level of fluency or even lived abroad any real length of time.”

You must have dual language when you were young. Learning a language is a lot more complicated than you think. If you think it is easy, try learning American Sign Language - not the English version, the actual language itself. on’t worry, you probably won’t struggle with it but it will teach you a lot about languages.

I know it is off topic but wtf??

'Not the English version, the actual language itself'

You do realise that British Sign Language is an entire language in its own right and is quite different to ASL? It is a bit like saying learn Frenchit is a real language, not like English!

and actually, no, you don't need to be bilingual as a child at all.

dh learnt English in school. His lives and works in UK. His English is better than most native speakers.
I only learnt French in school, about enough to get by travelling roudn France, no more.

As and adult I have learnt up to good conversation level:
Indonesian
Dutch
Russian
British Sign Language.

I don;t think I could ever get my Russian much better, it would take a lot of work, but if we ever lived in Holland again, or Indonesia, I could easily get them up to good fluency.
3 month slearning Indonesian
6 months learning Dutch and
18 months learning Russian got me to about the same level in each, all while living there, so using it all the time outside of lessons.

I am American and what i meant is there is signed exact English. (SEE) and few other sign languages that rely on English.

I wasn’t talking about British sign language

I didn’t bring up British sign language because i know very little about it. I only know there are several sign languages in US.most of them rely on English order. ASL is an language of its own

You're far from me as well, I'm in Bavaria.

Schade. I don't think anybody's even allowed in or out of Bavaria at the moment, are they? On the telly you get the impression that Söder's got the border manned with big blokes with hand sanitiser and pointy sticks

“and actually, no, you don't need to be bilingual as a child at all. “

that’s a good but in the U.S. so they stuck with one language until kids became teens and teach them another language and I was told we struggle with 2nd language. They changed it so some schools are teaching a little bit of second language in elementary schools

Of course you're allowed to have likes and dislikes but to be honest it sounds like you resented making the move in the first place and had somewhat decided you weren't going to like it before you even moved

It's a phenomenon I've witnessed in real life having lived in Germany (and other Eu countries) myself

As I was reading it I was surprised you'd been there 5 years as usually within a year or two people in your position have either adjusted or at least resigned themselves to make the most of it for the time they have to,

You don't have to be positive about everything - but you don't have to be negative either

Homesickness is natural, finding it hard to adjust to a new language and culture is natural but you seem to be completely either oblivious to or negating any positives?

I've moved around a LOT (army dependent mainly), some places I liked more than others, but NONE were all bad I find it hard to believe there's NOTHING you liked about Germany

And yea people will get defensive if you criticise them/their home - be that a country, city whatever would happen here too.

You spoke inappropriately you need to own that and accept that you messed up there.

But I'm afraid my feeling is you decided you wouldn't like it and so it became a self fulfilling prophecy

@Hoppinggreen

Maybe it’s a German thing DH is German and if me or the dc don’t like anything, from Mushrooms to camping it’s because we haven’t “given it a proper go” Not liking things is seen as some sort of failure

interesting! my part german grandparents and german aunt/uncles were like that! theres a real earnestness to some of them, and they can be quite fierce!

not sure what you're asking op, whtether it's ok to 'dis' someones country with impunity (maybe, but choose your audience and be prepared to take the flak) or whether you were 'wrong' not to like Germany! of course not!

if you're homesick, you're homesick, I get it having lived abroad in an amazing country, i still feel most comfortable in quirky Blighty.

Of course yanbu to not like living away from your home. Personally I would love to move back to Germany but my DP doesn’t speak German so would be in the same position as you

I can see people are talking about language fluency now... but... hopping back to what OP was saying earlier ...
OP thank you for suggesting -
"Understanding the Swiss", by Margaret Örtig-Davidson book. Sounds like it'll be a great book to read for interest.

What else do you find unusual in where you are, about life in Germany, compared to what you are used to in England or Switzerland ? (Will take it in context of what you've noticed where you are currently living, rather than being generalisations)

I did a pen pal exchange through school with a lovely teenage German friend where we spent two weeks living with each other's families (together) practising our languages for O Levels as a young teen (about 14)

I remember how much more freedom her friends and she had to go out later than we'd be allowed, that she called her parents by their names(!!!), how much more confident her classmates/ friends all were, and so open and friendly.

She said it was more usual in Germany to rent than buy, these large flats, & to move around, she found our little houses and "sweet tiny gardens" rather quaint and eccentric.

She introduced me to mayonnaise on chips (30+ years ago) which was a revelation (at the time) and didn't like salt and vinegar we put on ours when here. And she found our breakfasts ( back then was Rice Krispies cereal or jam on toast) far too sweet and I was delighted to have spicy German sausage slices with sour savoury vegetable type mix & croissants for breakfast.

(Of course now we have a more mixed influence on what we eat but it was so different as a young teen used to rather more bland English food - at least for breakfast!)

And her city's roads & sidewalks were so spacious, straight and well designed, but she had to drum into me you mustn't ever cross except for on a crossing, waiting for cross signal, as was an offence or socially frowned upon, to cross elsewhere without a signal. It would teach young children bad habits..

AND their schools didn't have school uniform, they could wear what they wanted, not just for the occasional dress down day! Everything was bigger and better organised and most of her classmates were generally tall giants compared to me and my classmates who went over. I thought i was tall...

When I was asked questions all her classmates were very confidently direct. They thought me sweet, shy, my classmates similar (of course we weren't shy but perhaps less directly spoken at the time!) .

It may just have been her school and specific city & where they took me to visit for days out, but it was bigger, more sporty outdoorsy and more logically designed than the higgledypiggledyness of the part of England I grew up in (which wasn't exactly too far from London and definitely not rural and fairly typical of English towns)

I loved seeing how quaint and cute (ie smaller scale) she found England and how overly polite she found our conversation unless we knew someone really well. It may be that was a different era, but super interesting to be same age but such different lifestyles.

It caused me problems in the beginning because I would make what I think of as polite conversation with one of the Kindergarten parents and they'd think I was making a big play to be friends, then I'd find myself getting invited to coffee and I didn't get why, our kids weren't friends, hurt feelings on both sides... I've learned to shut up now

Why couldn’t you go for coffee? What does it matter if your kids aren’t friends? They were just being friendly?

If that’s your general MO of course it’s hard to make friends.

When you move to a new country every contact is a chance to meet new people through them and to practice the language.