Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

[FindTheTruth]

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
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Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
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Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)



1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)



1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.



1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.

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Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
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AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

From my experience on here, the FWR have been as far from left as you can get.

That's a ridiculous statement. Standing up for women against misogynistic policies doesn't equate to "right wing".

Eresh, I don't want to risk a strike, but that statement is about as far anti trans as you can get.

It's not actually possible to change sex, Rooty.

No, I'm here as your thread popped up and I genuinely didn't know about the recent prison stuff so had a nosey.

It's interesting where your concerns lie when you "had a nosey". Not with the vulnerable women involved.

I think it's disingenuous to pretend that this is solely a debate about women's opinions on prisons.

what is it about then R00t?

As far as I can see this thread is entirely about the safeguarding issues and actual harm caused to women when TW prisoners are housed in the female estate.

The MoJ introduced a policy that, from their previous position in 2015 re. Tara Hudson court case, they knew was unsafe for women but they introduced it anyway.

We have seven rapes/sexual assaults that the prison authorities have had to acknowledge so far. That is seven rapes/sexual assaults that would not have happened if TW were not housed in the women's estate.

That is what we are discussing.

Would you have an objection to TW being housed in a separate TW facility as I understand is done successfully in Italy If not, why not?

People that say "you can't say that!" in a hushed voice when people are talking about factual matters which are necessary to the discussion at hand are a massive part of the problem.

It is not "as anti trans as you can get" to say that male to female trans people are biologically male, and that it's not possible to change one's biological sex. As "anti trans as you can get" is probably something like what celebrity trans ally and woke bro Damian Barr tweeted in the past.

This Twitter-like hyperbole does people no favours at all. Here things are rationally discussed, and sometimes it is robust, but it stays mostly civil.

Has this been reported on the BBC?

I can't see it. I'd have thought it would be a story they'd report on

@NiceGerbil

Has this been reported on the BBC?

I can't see it. I'd have thought it would be a story they'd report on

Long and bitter experience of the BBC means I'd have thought they'll either write:

1. The square root of fuck all, or
2. A piece by Ben Hunte about the transphobic hate group trying to force biologically male people into men's prisons.

All those who think TWAW, and it's fine to lock TW up with Women, you do know that most natal born men, who identify as of the female gender, still keep their male genitailia and can therefore rape women, even if incarcerated in a Woman's jail?

This simply puts the feelings of males above the safety of females.

It really saddens me that as a society we are prepared to put women at risk like this.

It saddens me that speaking against this is considered bigoted.

From my experience on here, the FWR have been as far from left as you can get

😂😂😂😂😂

@lifeturnsonadime

This simply puts the feelings of males above the safety of females.

It really saddens me that as a society we are prepared to put women at risk like this.

It saddens me that speaking against this is considered bigoted.

I'm glad you find it funny.

Do you generally consider people who don't give an arse about other people's feelings to be left?

@lifeturnsonadime

This simply puts the feelings of males above the safety of females.

It really saddens me that as a society we are prepared to put women at risk like this.

It saddens me that speaking against this is considered bigoted.

No it doesnt.

It equals the feelings of transwomen with those of women. As it should.

Where did she say it was funny?

Totally agree - male bodied people should not be in prisons, Refuges or rape crisis centres for women - this is state sponsored violence against women

@Ereshkigalangcleg

People that say "you can't say that!" in a hushed voice when people are talking about factual matters which are necessary to the discussion at hand are a massive part of the problem.

It is not "as anti trans as you can get" to say that male to female trans people are biologically male, and that it's not possible to change one's biological sex. As "anti trans as you can get" is probably something like what celebrity trans ally and woke bro Damian Barr tweeted in the past.

This Twitter-like hyperbole does people no favours at all. Here things are rationally discussed, and sometimes it is robust, but it stays mostly civil.

You must surely see that denying their actual existence is anti trans.

I agree it's civil. But I think we have lost sight of what is acceptable to say.

It's really not funny at all how misogynistic views prevail in society.

I agree it's civil. But I think we have lost sight of what is acceptable to say.

Yes I think we have. How can it not be acceptable to state that it's not possible to change sex? 1984.

I'm not denying anyone's existence. More hyperbole.

@OlympicProcrastinator

As a black woman I am thoroughly fed up with my ethnicity being dragged into every argument white women have about the trans issue like a ‘gotcha!’ moment. Just stop it. It’s deeply offensive.

There is nothing biologically different about me that can justify racism and to compare historic racism to make the argument that men can turn into women is so fucking offensive. How dare you.

I am sorry to have offended you.

However , I'm not saying there is. I also didn't use it to justify men turning into women.

I said that the 'but it's FACTS' argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny when applied to any other group - I used racism but it can easily be applied to homophobia, disablism, any other group where we would be horrified to make any kind of statement.

However, when it comes to being trans, anything goes apparently.

I also would like to categorically state I at absolutely no point justified racism.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No, I'm here as your thread popped up and I genuinely didn't know about the recent prison stuff so had a nosey.

It's interesting where your concerns lie when you "had a nosey". Not with the vulnerable women involved.

You don't think transwomen are vulnerable?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Where did she say it was funny?

Laughing faces generally display finding something amusing.

Rooty I have a cat. Can I transform my cat into a hamster?

In fact, have you ever encountered otherkin? Can I change into a fox?

Can one change species?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I agree it's civil. But I think we have lost sight of what is acceptable to say.

Yes I think we have. How can it not be acceptable to state that it's not possible to change sex? 1984.

No, not 1984.

2021, where thankfully prejudice and bigotry and -phobia are no longer acceptable.

Yes, lots of biologically male people are vulnerable. It doesn't have any bearing on this issue. There are other solutions available.

@SpringCrocus

All those who think TWAW, and it's fine to lock TW up with Women, you do know that most natal born men, who identify as of the female gender, still keep their male genitailia and can therefore rape women, even if incarcerated in a Woman's jail?

Yes.

But I'm really not sure what difference that makes.

Was the sole purpose of separate prisons in the first place to prevent rape?