Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

[FindTheTruth]

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
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Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
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Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)



1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)



1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.



1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.

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Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
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AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

2021, where thankfully prejudice and bigotry and -phobia are no longer acceptable.

Aren't they? Misogyny is, apparently. Point to where I signed up to a belief in other people's gender-based ideology?

@gardenbird48

I think it's disingenuous to pretend that this is solely a debate about women's opinions on prisons.

what is it about then R00t?

As far as I can see this thread is entirely about the safeguarding issues and actual harm caused to women when TW prisoners are housed in the female estate.

The MoJ introduced a policy that, from their previous position in 2015 re. Tara Hudson court case, they knew was unsafe for women but they introduced it anyway.

We have seven rapes/sexual assaults that the prison authorities have had to acknowledge so far. That is seven rapes/sexual assaults that would not have happened if TW were not housed in the women's estate.

That is what we are discussing.

Would you have an objection to TW being housed in a separate TW facility as I understand is done successfully in Italy If not, why not?

No objection to that at all.

I get what you are discussing and I get that you personally are in good faith.

But for most, they wouldn't support trans regardless of the issue and would find a way to make it about women.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

2021, where thankfully prejudice and bigotry and -phobia are no longer acceptable.

Aren't they? Misogyny is, apparently. Point to where I signed up to a belief in other people's gender-based ideology?

That's if you believe that trans is misognystic, which outside of the world of MN, most people don't because they know not everything is about them

But science denial is okay?

If I dye my hair blue, do you think there is the remotest possibility I will pass on the blue hair gene if I have another baby?

@PotholeParadies

But science denial is okay?

If I dye my hair blue, do you think there is the remotest possibility I will pass on the blue hair gene if I have another baby?

Nobody is denying their scientific sex.

Rooty, she didn't do any laughing faces in the post you quoted. Please read posts properly. You are confusing her with someone else. Stop putting words into people's mouths.

Nobody is denying their scientific sex.

Then what, by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, are you saying?

*No it doesnt.

It equals the feelings of transwomen with those of women. As it should.*

It's nothing to do with how the women prisoners feel about anything. It is about their safety and dignity to be imprisoned separately from male bodies. As is their right under the Geneva Convention.

Was the sole purpose of separate prisons in the first place to prevent rape?

Possibly not the sole purpose, but certainly a major factor. What is very likely to happen if you lock men and women up together?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Rooty, she didn't do any laughing faces in the post you quoted. Please read posts properly. You are confusing her with someone else. Stop putting words into people's mouths.

i think Rooty responded to me with laughing emojis when she meant to respond to the next poster.

There was nothing funny, intentional or otherwise, about my post about the safety of women.

I said that the 'but it's FACTS' argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny when applied to any other group - I used racism but it can easily be applied to homophobia, disablism, any other group where we would be horrified to make any kind of statement.

If I am following this logic correctly the next person who tells me that they experience phantom leg pain I have to tell them that it is not phantom pain but they actually do have a leg there, and they can stand up and simply walk away, and to not do so is disabilist?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Rooty, she didn't do any laughing faces in the post you quoted. Please read posts properly. You are confusing her with someone else. Stop putting words into people's mouths.

Apologies @lifeturnsonadime

As I think is fairly obvious my first post was to you but second was to pussy cat.

Cheers for being there to moderate me , @Ereshkigalangcleg 🙄

@AfternoonToffee

I said that the 'but it's FACTS' argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny when applied to any other group - I used racism but it can easily be applied to homophobia, disablism, any other group where we would be horrified to make any kind of statement.

If I am following this logic correctly the next person who tells me that they experience phantom leg pain I have to tell them that it is not phantom pain but they actually do have a leg there, and they can stand up and simply walk away, and to not do so is disabilist?

No.

@borntobequiet

Was the sole purpose of separate prisons in the first place to prevent rape?

Possibly not the sole purpose, but certainly a major factor. What is very likely to happen if you lock men and women up together?

Ah. That they will rape them.

Of course.

Nobody is denying their scientific sex.

This is exactly what you are doing when you are saying that transwomen should be in the female prison estate.

No "laughing faces". Please apologise to life, Rooty.

@lifeturnsonadime

*No it doesnt.

It equals the feelings of transwomen with those of women. As it should.*

It's nothing to do with how the women prisoners feel about anything. It is about their safety and dignity to be imprisoned separately from male bodies. As is their right under the Geneva Convention.

I don't disagree.

I actually think they should be housed separately. I've said that.

I just don't agree that this should be yet another opportunity to shoe horn in the drive of how women are at risk from men everywhere they turn.

160% punching power of women. Huge upper body strength advantage.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No "laughing faces". Please apologise to life, Rooty.

Rooty just has done, thank you.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No "laughing faces". Please apologise to life, Rooty.

If you'd calm yourself down without frantically looking for more sticks to beat me with (in something that has not a lot to do with yo) you'd see I have.

There are currently two threads now where you've jumped into my interactions with other posters to belittle me.

Could you desist?

@lifeturnsonadime

Nobody is denying their scientific sex.

This is exactly what you are doing when you are saying that transwomen should be in the female prison estate.

I haven't said that once. In fact I've said many times they should be separated.

I just don't agree that this should be yet another opportunity to shoe horn in the drive of how women are at risk from men everywhere they turn.

To be honest I haven't seen anyone do this on this thread.

Glad you think there should be a third space in prisons. Just wish the MOD did.

@lifeturnsonadime I didn't respond to you with laughing emojis. I wouldn't do so on such an issue , in fact I'm not disrespectful to do so at all.

I just misquoted.

@lifeturnsonadime

I just don't agree that this should be yet another opportunity to shoe horn in the drive of how women are at risk from men everywhere they turn.

To be honest I haven't seen anyone do this on this thread.

Glad you think there should be a third space in prisons. Just wish the MOD did.

Really?

You don't think many posters have talked about being at risk from men?

Yeh, I do.

I'm interested to know what people think should happen with transmen though .

I haven't said that once. In fact I've said many times they should be separated

If you don't believe people can change sex and think the third spaces option Is the best idea then what is it exactly you are arguing?