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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

582 replies

FindTheTruth · 03/03/2021 05:35

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
—————————

Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
—————————

Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



  1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)


  1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)


  1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.


  1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.
—————————

Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
————————-

AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
RootyT00t · 03/03/2021 18:11

I think the problem is, OP, when posts like this are on AIBU, then no. Because of course nobody is going to go against this.

But having seen these types of posts (the one about whether women should be kicked off from Twitter) it's not the question that's the issue. I doubt that is why anyone was called a bigot

It's the views of some of the people in the discussion.

RootyT00t · 03/03/2021 18:11

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You're right..but the truth is im not qualified to answer that.

That would ultimately be up to the relevant medical professionals on an individual basis.

Or perhaps biological males should never be considered female, because it's not possible to change sex, however much surgery you have or however many hormones you take or what you wear?

Eresh, I don't want to risk a strike, but that statement is about as far anti trans as you can get.
dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby · 03/03/2021 18:17

@2BDIs

Who on earth are the 3% who think vulnerable woman should be confined with men? Shame on you 3%. I appreciate the women are in prison as they are criminals and have wronged society it some way but come on, no one deserves that fear of being locked up with known male rapists
I think we need a re-run of the 1970's Googie Withers drama 'Within These Walls' (set in a Women's Prison) to demonstrate to the younger generation how vulnerable and non-violent the average female prisoner is. It also can't be a good idea for female prison officers to have to deal with male-bodied people. How does that work with the strength imbalance? If it puts women off joining the Prison Service, you will end up with male officers in both estates. More progress I don't think...
Original poster
FindTheTruth · 03/03/2021 18:18

I doubt that is why anyone was called a bigot

I think that the most troubling aspect of what's happened in public bodies leading to tragic situations like this one, is that anyone voicing concerns were labelled as bigots. All rights are human rights. Trans people are vulnerable. Women are vulnerable. Rights need to be balanced and that can't happen if all voices are not heard. Women were not consulted about this MoJ change in policy

OP posts:
RootyT00t · 03/03/2021 18:19

@FindTheTruth

I doubt that is why anyone was called a bigot

I think that the most troubling aspect of what's happened in public bodies leading to tragic situations like this one, is that anyone voicing concerns were labelled as bigots. All rights are human rights. Trans people are vulnerable. Women are vulnerable. Rights need to be balanced and that can't happen if all voices are not heard. Women were not consulted about this MoJ change in policy

Why would they?

They didn't consult students when they raised the uni fees. they didn't consult pensioners when they screwed their pensions.

I think it's disingenuous to pretend that this is solely a debate about women's opinions on prisons.

CuntAmongstThePigeons · 03/03/2021 18:20

But Rooty, can you not see, that this is exactly the problem. Facts should not be anti anything. That's like the church saying Galileo saying the earth goes around the sun was anti the church.

Facts should never be considered offensive. It's not a value judgement to say biological males cannot become biological females. Its just the truth.

If an ideology has a problem with the truth being spoken maybe its the ideology that needs to give not the truth.

RootyT00t · 03/03/2021 18:22

@CuntAmongstThePigeons

But Rooty, can you not see, that this is exactly the problem. Facts should not be anti anything. That's like the church saying Galileo saying the earth goes around the sun was anti the church.

Facts should never be considered offensive. It's not a value judgement to say biological males cannot become biological females. Its just the truth.

If an ideology has a problem with the truth being spoken maybe its the ideology that needs to give not the truth.

I laughed out loud at the name

No, it's not the ideology that has to give. What a ridiculous prospect.

If I aired awful views about Jewish people or black people based on history, people wouldn't say 'oh that's OK, that's true!'

The comment made was transphobic.

That is just not OK.

teawamutu · 03/03/2021 18:24

@CuntAmongstThePigeons

But Rooty, can you not see, that this is exactly the problem. Facts should not be anti anything. That's like the church saying Galileo saying the earth goes around the sun was anti the church.

Facts should never be considered offensive. It's not a value judgement to say biological males cannot become biological females. Its just the truth.

If an ideology has a problem with the truth being spoken maybe its the ideology that needs to give not the truth.

This. All day.

I support trans rights as I support all human rights. What I won't do is pretend that I no longer believe in biology.

That's not hate, or fear. It's realism. And plenty of trans people agree.

teawamutu · 03/03/2021 18:25

X-posted. Rooty, what provably true fact about Jews (not opinion, FACT) did you have in mind?

CuntAmongstThePigeons · 03/03/2021 18:27

I don't really know what black people or Jewish people have to do with putting male offenders in female prisons. Any analogy would surely be about belief systems. So do I think everyone should have to go to church even if they don't believe in God. No I think that would be ridiculous.

Expecting everyone to ignore reality in situations where that reality is important, I think is ridiculous.

All evidence goes to show why mixed sex prisons are a bad idea. I think single sex prisons should be upheld.

RootyT00t · 03/03/2021 18:29

@CuntAmongstThePigeons

I don't really know what black people or Jewish people have to do with putting male offenders in female prisons. Any analogy would surely be about belief systems. So do I think everyone should have to go to church even if they don't believe in God. No I think that would be ridiculous.

Expecting everyone to ignore reality in situations where that reality is important, I think is ridiculous.

All evidence goes to show why mixed sex prisons are a bad idea. I think single sex prisons should be upheld.

They don't. But then , neither did the original comment that you know I was referring to.

You can't respond to my response to a comment in particular and then jump to prisons. I haven't given my opinion on that.

Your analogy doesn't work either.

Denying trans is not what you're saying. That would mean not only not going to church but going up to every Christian you see and saying YOU ARE NOT.
Nobody does this.

RootyT00t · 03/03/2021 18:30

@teawamutu

X-posted. Rooty, what provably true fact about Jews (not opinion, FACT) did you have in mind?
No chance.

You know the point I was making.

PotholeParadies · 03/03/2021 18:32

Rooty I have a cat. Can I physically transform my cat into a hamster?

Original poster
FindTheTruth · 03/03/2021 18:32

Why would they?

They didn't consult students when they raised the uni fees. they didn't consult pensioners when they screwed their pensions.

I think it's disingenuous to pretend that this is solely a debate about women's opinions on prisons.

The MoJ pretended to run a consultation with different groups when, as we've seen in court today and yesterday, they had already made the decision after only consulting with gender lobby groups. The MoJ would have had the usual calls from lobby groups concerned that the MoJ were even meeting with women's groups and the need to keep the others in the room 'safe' from the nasty women's groups.

You're entitled to your opinion that the women on FWR are insincere, pretending that they knows less about something than one really does 'disingenuous'. My experience is that the FWR is more left leaning, many have transgender allies who agree in private that this situation is bad for everyone. Women are being accused as bigots and alt right on Twitter right now. I'm guessing that's why you're here?

Back to the topic of this thread - the MoJ locked up vulnerable women with male rapists. FWR shouted about the dangers of GRA. Stonewall said it's just admin. GRCs are not recorded in the GRA. The judges were frustrated that this meant the data for the MoJ policy was not available. we'll see what the judges say in a few weeks.

OP posts:
itsgettingwierd · 03/03/2021 18:32

It is indeed terrifying.

Why not just allocate 2 prisons nationally that have separate wings.

One for MtF and one for FtM prisoners.

They live in the wing and do not mix with people of opposite sex despite sharing gender.

The amount of cases coming up surely there is enough prisoners to even warrant the cost (cost obviously shouldn't be a deciding factor but they would use it as an excuse).

teawamutu · 03/03/2021 18:33

No, I honestly don't. You appeared to be saying that stating humans can't change sex is transphobic and compared it to facts that shouldn't be stated about, eg, black people or Jews.

What did you mean?

RootyT00t · 03/03/2021 18:34

@FindTheTruth

Why would they?

They didn't consult students when they raised the uni fees. they didn't consult pensioners when they screwed their pensions.

I think it's disingenuous to pretend that this is solely a debate about women's opinions on prisons.

The MoJ pretended to run a consultation with different groups when, as we've seen in court today and yesterday, they had already made the decision after only consulting with gender lobby groups. The MoJ would have had the usual calls from lobby groups concerned that the MoJ were even meeting with women's groups and the need to keep the others in the room 'safe' from the nasty women's groups.

You're entitled to your opinion that the women on FWR are insincere, pretending that they knows less about something than one really does 'disingenuous'. My experience is that the FWR is more left leaning, many have transgender allies who agree in private that this situation is bad for everyone. Women are being accused as bigots and alt right on Twitter right now. I'm guessing that's why you're here?

Back to the topic of this thread - the MoJ locked up vulnerable women with male rapists. FWR shouted about the dangers of GRA. Stonewall said it's just admin. GRCs are not recorded in the GRA. The judges were frustrated that this meant the data for the MoJ policy was not available. we'll see what the judges say in a few weeks.

From my experience on here, the FWR have been as far from left as you can get.

No, I'm here as your thread popped up and I genuinely didn't know about the recent prison stuff so had a nosey.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 03/03/2021 18:35

This is about the rank failure of the MOJ to consider the appropriateness of placing people with male bodies some of whom had a history of sexual offences in locked space with women.

Today’s case has shown how little real thought was given to the implications for women. Why was a Government department unable to provide data on how many trans gender people are in the prison system and where they are all housed. The judges have had order them to produce it if they can (it’s not clear that they have the figures). The MOJ didn’t even fully understand the operation of the EA2010 and its interaction with the GRA2004. Why is it that the MOJ failed to look into this properly?
You can’t balance rights until you recognise who has those rights and what they are.

JosieJarker · 03/03/2021 18:35

What awful things are true about jews or black people?
Is it anti trans to say that humans cant change sex? Really?
We segregate prisons by sex, seeing as humans cant change sex, anyone born male belongs in the male estate.
Its really not difficult or complicated.

Whatwouldscullydo · 03/03/2021 18:37

Eresh, I don't want to risk a strike, but that statement is about as far anti trans as you can get

What do you think of the trans people who also believe you cant change sex and are very much aware of their biological sex?

Are they anti rans ?

Thelnebriati · 03/03/2021 18:44

It seems spectacularly naïve for the justice system to believe that they know the offending history of their male prisoners, when the majority of sexual assaults don't result in a prosecution.
They also ignore the fact that for every violent offender there was a first time, and there's a chance it was enabled by opportunity.

AfternoonToffee · 03/03/2021 18:47

You can't respond to my response to a comment in particular and then jump to prisons. I haven't given my opinion on that.

Rooty I understand that you can't, because I guess you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If you agreed with the MoJ then you are also acknowledging that women in prison being raped (or at risk of) is acceptable but if you don't then the whole TWAW mantra is at risk of collapsing, because if it is not acceptable in a prison then it isn't acceptable anywhere else. I don't blame you for finding yourself in this corner but it shows the absolute over reach that the likes of Stonewall has had and they will be responsible for any of the predictable fallout.

OlympicProcrastinator · 03/03/2021 18:57

As a black woman I am thoroughly fed up with my ethnicity being dragged into every argument white women have about the trans issue like a ‘gotcha!’ moment. Just stop it. It’s deeply offensive.

There is nothing biologically different about me that can justify racism and to compare historic racism to make the argument that men can turn into women is so fucking offensive. How dare you.

ShagMeRiggins · 03/03/2021 19:03

They didn't consult students when they raised the uni fees. they didn't consult pensioners when they screwed their pensions.

Why would they, Root?

Because the examples you cited are benefits, not rights. Like it or not, female sex-based rights are a protected characteristic in the 2010 Equality Act.

School fees and pensions are not. That just government policy (benefits!), which is subject to change.

ShagMeRiggins · 03/03/2021 19:07

There is nothing biologically different about me that can justify racism and to compare historic racism to make the argument that men can turn into women is so fucking offensive. How dare you.

Yep. It’s not only offensive, it’s wrong, incorrect.

When fighting one’s corner, it’s best to have one’s own arguments. Not rely on the fight of others, certainly not co-opt their arguments.