Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

[FindTheTruth]

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
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Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
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Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)



1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)



1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.



1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.

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Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
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AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

You're right..but the truth is im not qualified to answer that.

That would ultimately be up to the relevant medical professionals on an individual basis.

Or perhaps biological males should never be considered female, because it's not possible to change sex, however much surgery you have or however many hormones you take or what you wear?

You're right..but the truth is im not qualified to answer that.

That would ultimately be up to the relevant medical professionals on an individual basis.

I think I put myself in the firing line in this thread....I think I need to retreat.....

I appreciate this may be a bit of an onslaught. Read around our point of view, and think about the question. You should have an answer of your own. It doesn't need to be the same as anyone else's, bit in the name of intellectual honesty, it needs to make sense.

Here's a question to think about.

If you think someone changes at some point, is that also the point at which they start, or stop needing prostate screening?

Is there a point at which such a person starts or stops being at risk of ovarian cancer?

@Crackerofdoom

Male sexual violence is the problem.

This is the crux of the issue. This is why single sex spaces are important for women. It is also why most Transwomen want to access women's spaces. But to accommodate them, we risk more sexual violence against women.

It is outrageous that male sexual violence is the issue here and yet women are the ones expected to give up rights and protections.

As a woman I have been subject to sexual harassment more times than I can remember and sexual violence on more than one occasion. However, my views that single sex spaces need to be preserved is trans phobic and extreme?

Men need to stop raping women. Men need to stop killing women. Men need to stop killing transwomen.

The solution is not to try and protect the Transwomen by risking the women.

We need to fix the men.

Absolutely it is such a depressing thought how f*ed up our society is ...I've thought thus often over the past few weeks reading threads like these.

Why are we in a society that tolerates male sexual violence so easily

@BalancedIndividual I think I put myself in the firing line in this thread....I think I need to retreat..... I'd ask you not to go competely!

I was in a similar space to you a few years ago. I had one of these posts. It felt aas though my common sense was being assaulted, that I was being called all sorts of nasty things, that I was suddenly on the wrong side of something when I was so very sure I was right.

Can I ask you to perhaps just float round this part of MN?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights

You will be surprised at first, will see lots of stroppy women being a bit too blunt and asserting that transwomen are definitely male.

But any one of the posts there might help you see why so many are disagreeing with you here. You don't have to agree with us, but understanding why we post what we do might be preferable to feeling browbeaten!

I look forward to reading more of you, sincerely!

‘If someone has successfully transitioned’ - they’d be making medical science because it’s not possible to change sex.

If they are ‘living as a woman’ they’re free to do obviously - except for when it contravenes sex based rights for women. An individual’s desire to express themselves should not trump women’s safety or women’s sex-based rights.

Aaaaaannnnd ... a campaign over on Twitter starts up to attack MN for being 'transphobic'. Amazing. I see you, Owen Jones. Never miss a chance to get the boot in, do you?

Blimey that was even faster than I anticipated!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

I think I put myself in the firing line in this thread....I think I need to retreat.....

No don't go! Have a read, think about the answers to the questions that have been posed, think about whether they can actually be answered and if not why not.

Regarding the difference, yes there is a difference between rape and sexual assault. But some sexual assaults by penetration are equally bad or can be worse

Your one of the "women do it too" lot.
Sure, nevermind that 98%of all violent sexual crimes are committed by males, regardless of how they 'identity'

I guess i dont think that there is a straight forward /concise definition of when someone has transitioned from one gender to another

Gender is a set of regressive sex role stereotypes.
Their sex is constant and unchangeable. The law in this case should always put the safety, privacy and dignity of all female prisoners over and above the feelings of male prisoners.

They can by all means have a trans section in the male estate, but no male prisoners should be given access to female prisoners. There should be no mixed sex facilities.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Sorry, I am going to try and respond to each point, it can seem a bit OTT, but it does help to understand what someone is really saying

I guess i dont think that there is a straight forward /concise definition of when someone has transitioned from one gender to another You say gender. Not sex. Do you think there is a dofference between the 2 terms?

Regarding the difference, yes there is a difference between rape and sexual assault. But some sexual assaults by penetration are equally bad or can be worse. OK! But as the vast majority of all violent crimes are committed by men and the vast majority of women in prison are there for crimes like shop lifting, non payment of council tax etc, your point does seem to be an odd distraction.

And I do understand what a lot of people are saying, that individuals who are males should not be in womens prisons. I completely agree. Good. That is only sane and sensible

But if someone has successfully transitioned and is living as a woman, then should they not be treated as such? (Is my point). Whichleads us back to how do humans change sex? You said it depends on feelings, clothing and hormones. But does that changes the physical make up of a body? How does any of that change the sex of a person?

No worries, youre right it does help.

Gender/ Sex - I think i see where youre going with this, if i recall correctly.... technically.... sex is determined by chromosomes. (Okay you do have me here)

I guess on a purely technical level, one cannot change their biological sex, BUT they can change the gender they identify as and choose to live as.

Regarding the last point - Again, I would have to say it would be an assessment of multiple factors ranging from physical attributes & appearance, hormonal levels, and lifestyle choices. Again, which is judged by an expert medical professional. From my understanding, this is well accepted by the medical community and most (but not all) of wider society?

Thats it, im running away now!

(I honestly dont mean any offence to either side, just trying to provide a balanced viewpoint. Its not straight forward topic, which is why each individual/offender has to be assessed on a case by case basis)

Bloody hell! That was a swift MN repsonse.

We are being actively monitored, I suspect!

Regarding the last point - Again, I would have to say it would be an assessment of multiple factors ranging from physical attributes & appearance, hormonal levels, and lifestyle choices. Again, which is judged by an expert medical professional. From my understanding, this is well accepted by the medical community and most (but not all) of wider society?

I'd add that a lot of posters here have trans friends, colleagues anfd family members, myself included. My friends are acepted as the gender they present, called by the preferred pronouns, should they have any and are generally just normal people with an interesting personal history! But none of them think they have actually changed sex! And two have spent a lot of time and money modifying their bodies, both having had complete surgery - which is unusual, especially in transwomen.

I don't hold the opinions I do because I am bigoted or hate transpeople! Quite the opposite!

Regarding the last point - Again, I would have to say it would be an assessment of multiple factors ranging from physical attributes & appearance, hormonal levels, and lifestyle choices. Again, which is judged by an expert medical professional. From my understanding, this is well accepted by the medical community and most (but not all) of wider society?

Well, apart from the fact that the only way for a male to 'live as a woman' is based on sexist stereotypes about living as a woman... The whole 'assessing someone' stuff is going out the window if the likes of the Labour Party get their way and GRA reform happens, meaning that any man can legally change their sex on their birth certificate with the mere filling in of a form. Legally being a woman means they would have more access to women's protections and provisions - there are still exemptions, but Stonewall are doing their best to ensure that they are removed as well.

The idea of 'medical assessments' etc is pretty outdated and also transphobic according to current doctrine I'm afraid.

There should be no 'case by case basis'

Male crimes committed by male people.
They should have no right to demand access to female prisons.

I expect you heard about Rachel Dolezal. You don't have to explain right here and now. Think of it as a night at the pub.

But how did you feel about that? Did you think the people who objected to her identifying as black were bigoted?

For example, is there a point at which someone like Rachel Dolezal should be entitled to be awarded a university scholarship funded to increase African-American access to higher education? Where is that point?

*I'd add that a lot of posters here have trans friends, colleagues anfd family members, myself included. My friends are acepted as the gender they present, called by the preferred pronouns, should they have any and are generally just normal people with an interesting personal history! But none of them think they have actually changed sex! And two have spent a lot of time and money modifying their bodies, both having had complete surgery - which is unusual, especially in transwomen.

I don't hold the opinions I do because I am bigoted or hate transpeople! Quite the opposite!*

Another important point often glossed over.

Another important point often glossed over - sorry for the bold fail

It's not straight forward topic, which is why each individual/offender has to be assessed on a case by case basis)

No, it has to be a blanket policy, as soon as you put in 'case by case' it gets subjective and then that is when huge gapping holes appear in the safety net.

We have DBS checks because of the huge gap that allowed Ian Huntley access to Jessica and Hollie, we never look on those checks as a case by case, everyone has one, no excuses. This has to be the same.

which is why each individual/offender has to be assessed on a case by case basis)

I disagree. The Geneva Convention states that female prisoners of war should be housed separately to males. Why does the MoJ think female prisoners of the state in peacetime do not deserve this? There are solutions which don't involve putting male prisoners in the female estate.

I guess on a purely technical level, one cannot change their biological sex, BUT they can change the gender they identify as and choose to live as.

They can identify as whatever gender identity they like, but I personally don't believe they are actually women, because for me "woman" simply means "adult human female". No more, no less. It's not any kind of value judgement. It's not personal, or intended as an insult. They just don't meet the criteria for me, as I don't believe the same things they do, namely the ideological belief that female brains can occur in male bodies, and that this means those male people are women.

And as for "choosing to live as another gender" their freedom to swing their arms has to be considered in the context of the location of my nose.

What we are seeing with this JR here is the potential consequences of this ideological view: that a group of biological males should be treated in every way as the "gender" they identify as, with no thought for the female people involved.

@ThumbWitchesAbroad thanks for broadening my post! Absolutely!

Like many of us on the FWR boards, its been obvious that this has been an issue for some time but the sheer scale of it coming out now has deeply shocked me.
The answer to the question of where a rapist should serve their sentence should never be anywhere they have access to women. Ever.
The complete lack of compassion shown to those women is so shocking.

YANBU.

It's shocking. It's 2021 ffs.

All animals are equal but some are more equal than others.