Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

[FindTheTruth]

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
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Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
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Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)



1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)



1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.



1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.

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Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
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AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

Yes, female prisoners are women. It's a perfectly correct statement.

Women don't have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists. They can choose not to commit offences which may lead to prison sentences.

Don't pay your TV licence, you can expect to be raped! Nothing to see here, no problem with locking sexually violent males up with women when they can't get away.

appreciate you chose your username to convey a certain hard image, as I chose mine for a certain gin

Is it? I've always thought it was the seaweedy vegetable you were curious about

Me too!

@Whatwouldscullydo

I completely agree. But if someone has successfully transitioned and is living as a woman, then should they not be treated as such? (Is my point)

How do you live as a woman though? What would that constitute.

"Barefoot in the kitchen, sucking dick."

That's how you live as a woman. And not a single trynswymyn is even making a token effort.

Is it possible that we can #bekind to them too, or does that only go one way?

I am presuming that is a rhetorical question.

@RootyT00t

Well, women don't have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with rapists.

Female prisoners face this.

Not all women are in prison.

However, I'm not for one second suggesting that anybody should be locked up with male prisoners.

That is a prime example of twisting logic pretzel wise.

Women in prison are still women. You are quibbling about the lack of teh word "some".

@Ereshkigalangcleg

appreciate you chose your username to convey a certain hard image, as I chose mine for a certain gin

Is it? I've always thought it was the seaweedy vegetable you were curious about

It's both, combined!

curiospiritscompany.co.uk/curio-wild-coast-gin/

And it's rathr nice!

Thank you for linking that podcast hermits I've just listened. I dont think there are the words to describe it, bad enough it happened once but its all too a familiar story isn't it...I dont think I could decide who was worse. The abusers or those who could have helped her but didn't then used her and sort her out again.

The idea that they could go through that, then be treated that way by the police and then end up in a cell with a male has to be the sickest turn if events ever.

Obviously this woman didn't but there are so many just like her who could end up experiencing that

Its just sick

@RootyT00t

Well, women don't have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with rapists.

Female prisoners face this.

Not all women are in prison.

However, I'm not for one second suggesting that anybody should be locked up with male prisoners.

Well, this is certainly written as part of a good-faith argument.

It's both, combined!

Ooh might have to try that!

I'm glad Scunny is back with another sadistic post.
It reflects exactly the position locked-up women have been put in and matches the apparent attitude of the decision makers.

That Rootytooty has found themself so very desperate to somehow, someway agree with Scunny is fascinating.

There are twitter trolls arranging to comment on anything and everything as a tag team to keep FWR mumsnetters busy and to comment all over AIBU to get this off the front page so thanks for bumping it up again. Much obliged Scunny.

Now more Mumsnetters can see it to vote.

What a very bizarre turn this thread took.

[quote PotholeParadies]I just want to repost this. Look how many assaults were officially recorded within the women's estate back then. Now think about the number 7 that has been thrown around. That's more than a 100% increase in sexual assaults in the female estate!

Table comes from one of the briefing papers published by the Commission in Sex in Prison, established by the Howard League for Penal Reform in 2013 toundertake the first ever review of sex inside prison.

This is howardleague.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Coercive-sex-in-prison.pdf[/quote]
Very clear : 4 in female and 165 in male.
Men, you need sort your shit out.

More women being raped and sexually assaulted is just irrelevant background noise as TW comfort and wish to be around "other women " comes first.

@picklemewalnuts

What a very bizarre turn this thread took.

Yes very bizarre.

Lots were asking
"Who are the 3%?"
"Are there really rape apologists voting YABU?"

Now we can see them reveal themselves.

I think Scunny might be a previous Secretary of State for Justice. 😆 The views match .

I'd be interested if the 3% who really think that rape is an appropriate sanction for failure to pay council tax or tv licence could let us know what they think the sanction for actual rape should be?

@SorryAuntLydia

I'd be interested if the 3% who really think that rape is an appropriate sanction for failure to pay council tax or tv licence could let us know what they think the sanction for actual rape should be?

Obviously fresh victims, because that's what's hsppening here.

@RootyT00t

I think the point being made is that the initial statement being made is incorrect, which is true.

It’s true because they are women, they have gone to court, and presumably they feel they had to as they have no other redress in the matter.

it is interesting that a number of people here have made the assumption that there is absolutely no chance that they will ever end up in prison and completely at the mercy of the system.

However, miscarriages of justice happen, innocent people get locked up, circumstances conspire against you and 'stuff happens'.

I am extremely law abiding and would never expect to be in the position of being in trouble with the police but I'm sure that quite a few people in jail never expected to be there. This could become a much more important issue as the Hate Crime laws are being ever more rigorously enforced.

I had a quick look at the CPS website earlier (until recently a Stonewall Champion, they currently claim not but Stonewall claim they are - who knows?) and their conviction rate on 'Hate Crime' is approx 84% (compared with the rather dire rape conviction rate that I have heard is around the 1% mark).

I have heard of two separate women who have spent a night in the cells for 'Hate speech' (which has quite a wide definition) - who knows where being accused of 'wrongthink' can lead.....

@SorryAuntLydia

I'd be interested if the 3% who really think that rape is an appropriate sanction for failure to pay council tax or tv licence could let us know what they think the sanction for actual rape should be?

Idvlike to think nobody thinks that

However, miscarriages of justice happen, innocent people get locked up, circumstances conspire against you and 'stuff happens'.

very true Garden. at least most people on MN have empathy

There was a thread on this ages ago

One or two people explained the thinking.

Trans women are women.
It would be a cruel and unusual punishment for locking women in a men's prison
They would be at massive risk
Singling out one group of women to do this to on the basis of a characteristic they can't help is appalling discrimination
Women do commit sex offences, acts of violence etc
All women who pose a risk to other women in prison should be addressed correctly and the risk managed
The prison system has failed to do this in a number of cases
The only ethical answer is to improve how these risks are managed in the women's estate.
Not take women who are assumed to be a risk due to innate aspects they can't change

That was the crux of it.

If you truly believe TWAW then naturally putting them in with men is an appalling thing to do.

So there you have the thinking.

When I say they explained it I mean they joined the thread to argue this point.

That was their genuine view (or so they claimed and there's no reason to think they're lying).

If you believe TWAW then you see excluding them from any women's or girls stuff as egregious and dangerous discrimination.

If you believe TWAW then you see excluding them from any women's or girls stuff as egregious and dangerous discrimination.

and that's what's led to women being assaulted in prison by intact male rapists.. no thought to women. sex-based rights erased. it's not inclusive. to be inclusive you need categories in some circumstances. "a proportionate means to a legitimate aim" in the Equality Act. Why did the Ministry of Justice ignore this. Dystopian nightmare.