Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

[FindTheTruth]

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
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Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
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Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)



1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)



1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.



1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.

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Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
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AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

Yes thank you to all.

And 💐💐💐💐💐 to the brave woman whose courage I hugely admire. You are a strong woman, with many strong women behind you.

Courage calls to courage everywhere, and its voice cannot be denied.☀️

Yes @JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown it's a huge scandal.

There are so many unknowns but just working with MoJ "evidence" and @justasking111 claimed figures.

7/12000 is 0.05833333 % . That means are over 100 times more likely to sexually assault women prisoners if approx 0.06% are causing 6% of known cases.

The women's prison population at any one time hovers between 3000 and 4000. So even if we look at it at any one time rather than annually it would be 25 to 33 times MORE likely to sexually assault women prisoners.

Do I think TW in the national population are between 25 and 100 times (that is 2500% to 10000% 😲) more likely to sexually assault women ? Probably not.

What we DO know is that we need better stats not anecdotes from Ministry of Justice and we know that our institutions have facilitated a pathway for the very worst of people to identify as TW (genuine or not) and increase risk of sexual assault on the most vulnerable women in society by 2500% to 10000% . Heads need to roll.

Another vote of thanks to @KeepPrisonsSingleSex for excellent work, and my sympathy and compassion to the woman who was assaulted in prison.

I hope the woman at the centre of this case is offered support, compensation and JUSTICE.

@YouSetTheTone

‘If someone has successfully transitioned’ - they’d be making medical science because it’s not possible to change sex.

If they are ‘living as a woman’ they’re free to do obviously - except for when it contravenes sex based rights for women. An individual’s desire to express themselves should not trump women’s safety or women’s sex-based rights.

More to the point, a convicted rapist is demonstrably not "living as a woman" because rape is a crime which women cannot (under English law) commit, on account of not having the necessary body part.

toconclude

You may well be hateful bigots for not-so-subtly implying that all transwomen are potentially intact male rapists, but I'm sure that was not your intention

Quite

This thread is about prisons. Half of the TW in prison are convicted sex offenders. Some raped women and children with their penis. Some are murderers. All of them are male. Why are you so desperate to protect them?
Where are all the TRA's condemning these males who attack women and children? Why does a male criminal with a trans identity deserve more consideration than the females prisoners?

Of course there needs to be solutions. Keeping trans women in the male estate is the obvious one. If trans rights activists think that endangers transwomen then perhaps they could think of alternatives, campaign, crowd fund, take legal action, the way women have.

Yes, you would think they would be able to, if they didn't have the choice for MTF trans people to use women's spaces.

The discrepancy between approx 12000 women imprisoned and approx 3500 women in prison is because many are on short remands, do very short sentences (in for just days sometimes), get early release and the nature of our crimes is so often minor and non-violent.

Thanks again @KeepPrisonsSingleSex for that summary and all your work. Special thanks to the claimant, brave woman

@RootyT00t

I have a genuine question. Why don't stone wall do this?

You know when, on that other thread, you said you had to do some more reading in order to understand the MoJ issue?

You also need to do more reading to understand what it is that Stonewall have been dong in this, and many other similar situations. Start with their long stated official aim of removing sex as a protected characteristic in law! Consider why they want to do that?

It would help if you stopped and read threads without feeling the need to point out the truly obvious! NAMALT is tiresome. Especially here where the men in question are convicted rapists, violent men who raise their hand and ask to be women and get transferred to teh female estate no questions asked. Or they did... court case ongoing! NAMALT is meaningless because it is so bloody obvious, so universally true. Men hating MNers is an equally tired trope. MNers hate violent men, men who continue the partiarchy, don't pay maintenance etc. Those who fit your NAMALT aren't included. Why would they be?

To all the other posters my apologies! I'd have given up with the patient explanations had I known persistent NAMALT would be the result!

Quite!

I just want to repost this. Look how many assaults were officially recorded within the women's estate back then. Now think about the number 7 that has been thrown around. That's more than a 100% increase in sexual assaults in the female estate!

Table comes from one of the briefing papers published by the Commission in Sex in Prison, established by the Howard League for Penal Reform in 2013 toundertake the first ever review of sex inside prison.

This is howardleague.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Coercive-sex-in-prison.pdf

What's worse than the NAMALT is when having a trans identity is being used to somehow excuse the behaviour of these individuals and we are meant to bend over backwards to accommodate their demands to the detriment of female prisoners in case it hurts their feelings.

Why are posters like Rooty so hellbent on defending these male sex offenders? Why can't they be in prison with all other male rapists?

The faux naivity is beginning to grate.

Thank you for all the work you do @KeepPrisonsSingleSex

@WanderinWomb

The discrepancy between approx 12000 women imprisoned and approx 3500 women in prison is because many are on short remands, do very short sentences (in for just days sometimes), get early release and the nature of our crimes is so often minor and non-violent.

Thanks again @KeepPrisonsSingleSex for that summary and all your work. Special thanks to the claimant, brave woman

Ah yes, of course. I thought when I was reading it, that I wasn't interpreting it correctly. That's quite right.

@feelingverylazytoday

I voted YANBU. I can only assume the 3% who voted YABU read the question wrongly, or are rapist enabling cunts, or even rapists themselves.

I voted YABU because the question is unreasonable and irrelevant.

"Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists."

Women don't have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists. They can choose not to commit offences which may lead to prison sentences.

"So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?"

That's not an AIBU, more of an AWHB. As an AWHB, no they're not hateful bigots. As an AIBU, yes, because it isn't an AIBU.

I hope that helps you with your very lazy assumptions (appropriate username, much like mine). At least one of the 3% is able to read, thinks rape is appalling and should remain a serious criminal offence, and am not (and technically couldn't be) a rapist.

@Clymene

Women don't matter.

Ain't that the truth

Women don't have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists. They can choose not to commit offences which may lead to prison sentences.

So basically fuck them criminals they deserve to be raped if they break the law? Interesting. Not surprising though

Women don't have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists. They can choose not to commit offences which may lead to prison sentences. And the men? Or are they just doing that comes naturally?

You seem to be syng loud and clear that if you commit the offence of say, not paying your council tax, you can only expect additional trauma over and above the legal repercussions. And that's just tough!

I hope that helps you with your very lazy assumptions (appropriate username, much like mine). At least one of the 3% is able to read, thinks rape is appalling and should remain a serious criminal offence, and am not (and technically couldn't be) a rapist. But do seem to be in favour of not stopping women being raped in prison because they shouldn't have been naughty in the first place.

I appreciate you chose your username to convey a certain hard image, as I chose mine for a certain gin, but I don't post pissed...

Transwomen dont have to commit crimes either, then they wont have to fear being locked up with men.
Is the obvious rejoinder to that piss poor "sting", Scunthorpe

Women don't have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists. They can choose not to commit offences which may lead to prison sentences

Scunthorpe 48% of crimes committed by women were done with the intent of supporting someone else. It doesn't make those crimes forgiveable (and indeed they were not forgiven, because those women are now in prison) but it does put it into perspective next to the hge proportion of transwomen who are in prison because they are rapists and/pr murderers.

Until "rape by a fellow prisoner" is an acceptable sanction in UK law (over my dead body), male rapists should never be put in women's prisons.

And as other posters have said, male rapists who then transition can avoid the pain of being sent to male prisons by simply not raping anyone.

*Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists."

Women don't have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists. They can choose not to commit offences which may lead to prison sentences.

I'm no longer at the point where I'm surprised some people's minds automatically jump to damning the women for their crimes leading to their sexual assault by a rapist, rather than the rapist for his crimes, leading to them to sexually assault those women.

I don't think I've ever heard of quite such extreme victim blaming, tbh.

I think the point being made is that the initial statement being made is incorrect, which is true.

@RootyT00t

I think the point being made is that the initial statement being made is incorrect, which is true.

?? How so?

Well, women don't have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with rapists.

Female prisoners face this.

Not all women are in prison.

However, I'm not for one second suggesting that anybody should be locked up with male prisoners.

This is one of the most traumatic Podcasts I have listened to www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kv7v

The thought a woman, and such a young woman can go through all of that and then be imprisoned as a result of the abuse she suffered is bad enough and to think she is the only one to experience this would be naive in the extreme.

Women like this are ignored and betrayed by the system time and time again. To brush it off as "They can choose to not commit offenses" is ignorant and callous.

Is it possible that we can #bekind to them too, or does that only go one way?