Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

[FindTheTruth]

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
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Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
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Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)



1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)



1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.



1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.

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Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
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AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

@Erkrie

All I dared to say was that we need to think about a solution, not just a no.

Why is it always down to women to think of a solution to male problems?

It isn't.

But we are the ones talking about the issue.

I do get, as much as we never see eye to eye, your point. Of course I do.

I just think there needs to be solutions without we don't want them, so not our problem, done.

I just think there needs to be solutions without we don't want them, so not our problem, done.

Of course there needs to be solutions. Keeping trans women in the male estate is the obvious one. If trans rights activists think that endangers transwomen then perhaps they could think of alternatives, campaign, crowd fund, take legal action, the way women have.

Nen could have sorted it out years ago. If they had wanted. But it's always someone else's fault and it's always someone else's responsibility to fix it.

[quote RootyT00t]@NeedtoKnow101

It's not about derailing. It's just about asking how this would actually work - if this was to be successful in a court, we would need actual solutions, not just 'NO!'[/quote]

The solution is simple. Male-bodied prisoners stay in men's prisons. Keep prison's single sex.

The solution is simple. Male-bodied prisoners stay in men's prisons. Keep prison's single sex.

As per the Geneva Convention? Controversial 😂

[quote CuriousaboutSamphire]@ThumbWitchesAbroad thanks for broadening my post! Absolutely![/quote]
Ha! Glad you thought so - sadly by the time I saw the notification that you'd posted this, MNHQ had decided to delete my post.
Hey ho, thought I'd kept it the right side of the rules but obviously did something over the line. Although who knows - maybe it was just reported.

Interesting that the "make women share with rapists" was three percent very early on then down to just one percent for mos of the day. Now back up to three percent overnight (waves transatlanticly)

The hairy handed, the midnight misogynists , Penny Mordaunt, Crispin Blunt, Andrew Adonis, Michael Cashman, Liz Barker, Jess Phillips and sadly most of our useless MPs and their friends the Twitter incels have really been trying their hardest to pretend otherwise but we ALL know why single sex places are important.
NB Prison rape porn is very popular and there are plenty of sadists around.
But still overwhelmingly people know it's ammoral for government to force a woman who has been sexually assaulted by a man in prison to have to force Judicial Review to try and stop it happening to more women.

I hope we are all writing to our MPs about this AIBU question and the results of vote

@titchy

I just think there needs to be solutions without we don't want them, so not our problem, done.

Of course there needs to be solutions. Keeping trans women in the male estate is the obvious one. If trans rights activists think that endangers transwomen then perhaps they could think of alternatives, campaign, crowd fund, take legal action, the way women have.

Very true. Stonewall probably have the funds and the muscle to attempt to sort this out, but they won’t.

@justasking111

Question, 6% of sexual assaults in women's prisons by trans. Who is carrying out the other 94%??

Well that would be "women" but since MoJ treats any one who says they are female as a woman it doesn't really help.

For context on numbers around 12000 women are imprisoned each year, MoJ says "anecdotally" are 7 TW in women's estate (they have no reliable stats)
So 7 to 12000 and yet causing 6% of reported sexual assaults. That is a massive increase in risk, massive.

I thought Jess Phillips was supportive of women’s rights? How disappointing to hear otherwise.

Brilliant letter.
Will there be a way for the public to add our names as supporting signatories? I've seen that done before (Jonny Best letter and others) though clueless of the practicalities of setting up such.

That is a cracking letter KPSS. Thank you

You may well be hateful bigots for not-so-subtly implying that all transwomen are potentially intact male rapists, but I'm sure that was not your intention

*justasking111

Question, 6% of sexual assaults in women's prisons by trans. Who is carrying out the other 94%??

Well that would be "women" but since MoJ treats any one who says they are female as a woman it doesn't really help.*

For context on numbers around 12000 women are imprisoned each year, MoJ says "anecdotally" are 7 TW in women's estate (they have no reliable stats)
So 7 to 12000 and yet causing 6% of reported sexual assaults. That is a massive increase in risk, massive.

I'd be interested to see how much that 6% figure would increase if they included assaults by TW who entered prison with a GRC rather than getting one there or transferring without one, because according to the MoJ's own statement those would be considered as female on female assaults and would be in the 94% category.

This whole thing is such a shitshow. Male sex offenders should never, ever be automatically locked up with women overnight in a women's prison. It's fucking horrifying. There needs to be mass resignations and sackings for anyone who enabled this. It's a national scandal and should be treated as such.

@toconclude

You may well be hateful bigots for not-so-subtly implying that all transwomen are potentially intact male rapists, but I'm sure that was not your intention

Quite.

I have a genuine question. Why don't stone wall do this?

All men are potential rapists ...doesn’t mean they will all go on to become one, but as we and the MOJ can’t be sure or do an adequate risk assessment because they can’t even get correct facts and numbers, the current policies are putting women at risk.
Incidentally I believe that women are no longer sent to prison for TV licence non payment. I think that changed around the time we were told that other options were preferable for most female offenders, while at the same time proudly boasting of 500 new places for women in prison due to more police on the streets arresting more women... for what? Naming the problem ?

It is extremely tedious to constantly have to state and re-state the very obvious point that in discussing the dangers and risks to women and children from some very dangerous men, it is necessary to actually name and openly discuss that danger and risk from those men.

Until there is an absolutely fool-proof way of sorting those men, of which there demonstrably are many, from the many good and decent men, sex segregation in prisons, rape crisis centres, DV shelters, toilets, changing areas and many other spaces is absolutely necessary in order to keep the more vulnerable sex safe from harm.

If you cannot accept that truth, nor stomach the truthful discussion of it, then I would have to conclude that you are not, in fact, interested in women’s and/or children’s protections at all. Not in any meaningful sense. Paying lip service to it isn’t good enough.

For context on numbers around 12000 women are imprisoned each year,

I don't think that's right. There are about 3,400 thousand women in prison. And about 77,000 men. (2020)

www.statista.com/statistics/283475/prison-population-and-capacity-of-united-kingdom-uk-by-gender/

And last time I looked, a few years ago the figures for sex offences were loosely, 14,000 men and 120 women.

(And 125 trans people, of which approx 60 were sex offenders.)

@Datun

For context on numbers around 12000 women are imprisoned each year,

I don't think that's right. There are about 3,400 thousand women in prison. And about 77,000 men. (2020)

www.statista.com/statistics/283475/prison-population-and-capacity-of-united-kingdom-uk-by-gender/

And last time I looked, a few years ago the figures for sex offences were loosely, 14,000 men and 120 women.

(And 125 trans people, of which approx 60 were sex offenders.)

If most of those women are imprisoned for very short sentences it will be right. 4 women serving 3 month sentences one after the other would equate to 1 being in prison at any one time.

My summary of Day Two:

Part 1: Equality Act

It was clear from evidence presented that the MoJ is seemingly determined to house at least some male prisoners in the female estate & to expose women in prison to them. Even the highest risk TW are still able to mix with women.

Distress to women is never a consideration: defence states this cannot be operationalised in risk ax.

The decision that EA exceptions did not apply to prisons was based on definition of ‘services’ & ‘communal accommodation’. SSJ now concedes that in some respects prison is a ‘service’ for purposes of EA exceptions.

BUT: EA exceptions are statement of permissibility not obligation. Decision-maker is free to ignore these or to implement a lower threshold. The legal obligation in EA is non-discrimination. AGAIN: The defence stated that women have NO LEGAL RIGHT TO ANY SPACES FREE OF MALES. The CAN be provided, but there is NO OBLIGATION.

Defence: WOMEN HAVE NO RIGHT IN LAW TO SINGLE-SEX SPACES.

The policies meet the obligations under EA & Lucy Frazer in November 2020 confirmed the correctness of these. It was open to her to make a different decision & she did not.

Part 2: Data collection

Defence confirmed that no data are collected on GRC holders. The reason for this is that collecting this may be criminalised under the GRA.

Judges were incredulous that ‘no one knows’ how many TW with a GRC there are stating that anecdotal reports are inadequate. Defence was directed to supply specific data on GRC holders.

We frequently hear that it is a criminal act to state that someone has a GRC. The Equal Treatment Bench Book goes as far as to say that misgendering and dead naming could also be criminal acts.

It cannot be the case that the law, or the interpretation of that law, criminalises gathering data that is vital to safeguarding and to risk ax. No entitlement to privacy can trump the safety of others in this way.

Part 3: Karen Jones & Article 8 rights

Defence referred to legal case brought by a TW with a GRC who had not (yet) had surgery, and who sought to be transferred from the male to the female estate. We have identified this as the case brought by Karen Jones:

www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk/karen-jones

The judge ruled in favour of Jones, stating that to deny the request was both in violation of Article 8 rights and ‘irrational’. We assume that defence case is similarly that to exclude TW (at least those with GRC) from female estate is ‘irrational’.

What was not stated in court yesterday is the following:
Jones was convicted of a brutal attempted rape, committed through rage of not being a woman
Jones had previously been imprisoned for murder of partner who had refused to fund reassignment
The attempted rape was committed 5 days after release from prison

What was also not stated was that at no point in those proceedings were the interests of women in prison represented. Worse, Dr James Barrett of the Gender Identity Clinic stated in his evidence that the only women in prison who would object to Jones are THE SORT OF WOMEN WHO ENJOY CONFLICT.

The yearly figure might reflect the fact that women are imprisoned more often for a shorter time, for lesser crimes than men. The tariff for men means that in general they have to do more , of more serious crimes to be imprisoned. Lately there seem to have been several instances of men who have been given community sentences for crimes such as looking at child abuse online, even when they have previous. Some reasons have been given as being that prison would be too difficult for the man concerned.... so those that are in prison are much more likely to be there on long sentences for more serious crimes. And of course we oreads know that the majority of rapists are never tried , let alone convicted.

Thanks @KeepPrisonsSingleSex for all the work you do and your helpful summary of the case. Fingers crossed that the judges will put a stop to this outrageous practice.

Of course thanks to FPFW too.

Thank you KPSS

Thank you KPSS and FPFW and the woman who brought the case. As with many other ongoing cases the law is very murky on many aspects and must be tidied up, not least to clarify the area between the EA and the GRA. I wish the whole thing could be abolished and looked at with women’s protections being taken into account