Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

[FindTheTruth]

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
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Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
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Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)



1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)



1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.



1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.

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Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
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AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

@ArcheryAnnie

Or by women say no do we only care about those who identify as a woman? Once you identify as a man, you're off to the wolves?

Transmen are usually housed in the female estate anyway. Nobody is throwing transmen to the wolves.

This. I don't understand your stance on trans men@RootyT00t

You're saying it would be unfair to send trans men to the male prison. Most people including me agree. This keeps natal women far safer when it comes to sexual assault and rape than they would be if housed with people of the opposite natal sex.

You're saying that it's unfair for trans women to be housed with natal men so they should be housed with natal females. This increases the risk to natal women.

Why is it acceptable to you that the risk to natal women who are trans men is reduced by being in a female prison, the risk to trans women is reduced by being housed in a female prison, while the risk to natal women is increased? You mention a third space would be preferable but that people could identify themselves into these spaces, increasing the risk of trans women and trans men and that this is not acceptable.

Why is it that the risk to trans people should be considered and mitigated while the risk to natal women can be increased? Why is it that natal women can be put at risk?

You're saying it is fair

Sorry for the rogue "You're saying it is fair" at the end of my post!

'
So because stonewall are doing something you don't agree with, sod the biologically born females who now identify as male?'

Are you saying that transmen no matter what stage of transition should be in the male estate?

I'm not sure what you are getting at there.

The idea that women not wanting convicted rapists in women's prison is NIMBYism is a pretty grotesque thing to say tbh

@ArcheryAnnie

Or by women say no do we only care about those who identify as a woman? Once you identify as a man, you're off to the wolves?

Transmen are usually housed in the female estate anyway. Nobody is throwing transmen to the wolves.

Quite. The people who are keenest on putting transmen in the male estate are the TRAs. It's the logical conclusion of their TWAW and trans men are men stance. It's sickening.

This is interesting. Lot of issues there, but the fact that Dalton got to stay in the female estate isn't one. I'm horrified by the statement that Dalton would have gone to the male estate if they had had a GRC.

insidetime.org/transgender-special-treatment/

This may be of interest. The report puts the figures in context, and discusses the data collection, so do read that.

howardleague.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Coercive-sex-in-prison.pdf

“*picklemewalnuts
"If I aired awful views about Jewish people or black people based on history, people wouldn't say 'oh that's OK, that's true!'"

Rooty that ^^ comment is so incredibly offensive I want to report it. I'm not going to- though I wouldn't discourage anyone else- because it illustrates how you think and the paucity of your position.

--I just hope to goodness no one misreads it and thinks I said such a thing.

I have apologised to someone who took offense.

In hindsight I recognise how it can be offensive, however - my point was simply this.

We would never attempt to justify racism, sexism, homophobia, disablism etc etc etc

So why do we not only justify transphobia but encourage it , with the sentiment of ' but it's true'?*”

No Rooty, what you did was to demonstrate you spectacularly misunderstood my objection then dug a further hole by reinforcing your view that a scientific fact, i. e. men cannot turn into women in a biological sense was somehow comparable to the things other people have claimed as facts to justify racism / homophobia etc.

We are not here for you to use, for you to compare, for you to comment on to further your agenda. The issues are in no way comparable. What you said is deeply offensive, untrue and a downright lazy way to make an argument.

Good god. If men/males put as much effort into sorting their own shit put as they do trying to remove womens spaces away from them wed all he better off.

We are not going to sit here trying to work out how to solve problems women are facing in ways that doesn't make men feel bad for their part in it when men don't even help themselves and care nore about what we think or don't think of men and punishing us for mentioning it that they do about trying to fix the problem even when their own biggest problem is eachother.

I dont care what any woman in prison has done. Rape is not an acceptable punishment and being ok with that even if the woman is a sex offender herself, well it makes me as bad as she is then doesn't it. If I'm happy to stand by and watch it happen and not say anything.

I dont care if a man/male is in prison for a parking violation and is the kindest man/male on the planet. He doesn't belong in a womens prison.

Whatever shit is happening in the male estate , the answer is to try and fix that , not try and get transferred to the womens estate so you can try and bring the standards down the the males level.

We are not here to stroke the egos of men /males and solve all our problems only after we have sorted out evseyone else's. If they chose not to then that's not our fault.

YANBU

@PotholeParadies

Any mention of men suffering in any way will earn you three accusations of 'what aboutery, a 'poor men's' and someone saying it is not a woman's problem. Each and every time.

We've spotted the pattern. I used to be a feminist on thestudentroom. Every time there was a thread about a women's issue, multiple people tried to derail it by bringing up men's issues. At first I engaged in debate.

Then I noticed that when there was a thread about men's issues, I never brought up women's issues and asked myself why not. And I said, "um, because that would be really rude!" Then I asked myself, "would it be okay to keep bringing up dog welfare on a thread trying to draw attention to equine welfare?" And I said, nope!

And then I tried to start a thread about men's welfare in prison, and publicising the Howard League (prisoner welfare is an issue I care about, actually).

None of the men who usually brought up male prisoners participated, and my thread (that I'd spent an hour writing) got deleted!

Anyway. howardleague.org/ go there.

It's incredibly draining isn't it, to have threads derailed so intensely, persistently, yet nonsensically.

'Approx 40% are inside for non payment of TV licences. '

Slightly off-topic sorry, but isn't it terrible that so many TV licence offences end in a prison sentence? This doesn't happen with parking tickets does it?

Women only spaces were created to protect women. Not every man is an abuser of course not. (I don't recall anyone on this thread or the Feminist women's rights FWRs threads suggest otherwise and if they did the other FWRs would call them out on it!!). And of course men are also victims of sexual assault and domestic violence. But the statistics show the overwhelming majority of sexual assaults, domestic violence etc are BY MEN/MALES.

Rates of sexual violence victimisation in the lives of women in prison are so high that some researchers have suggested sexual abuse is a pathway to prison for women.

people attacking Mumsnet on twitter ignore that the overwhelming majority of violence is BY MEN/MALES. Safeguarding women is not hateful or bigoted or transphobic. Questioning how laws and policy change when males identify as women, in safeguarding, in certain circumstances is a logical point. It's a question that does require consideration and has merit. Let's strip away the accusations that somebody is a TERF. I have a deep respect for trans women I know and the ones speaking out for women's rights. This is not an issue about recognising our fellow human beings who are trans. The question is about the removal of sex-based rights by unelected policy makers in government listening only to Stonewall et al, which leads to safeguarding injustices with women locked up with rapists.

@NeedToKnow101

'Approx 40% are inside for non payment of TV licences. '

Slightly off-topic sorry, but isn't it terrible that so many TV licence offences end in a prison sentence? This doesn't happen with parking tickets does it?

Agree NeedToKnow, Stopping women going to prison for not paying a TV license, really needs to be thread in FWR. I don't know how the UK came to this or what the answer is --- but the intelligent women on FWR will come up with the analysis and maybe ways to do something about it.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Good god. If men/males put as much effort into sorting their own shit put as they do trying to remove womens spaces away from them wed all he better off.

We are not going to sit here trying to work out how to solve problems women are facing in ways that doesn't make men feel bad for their part in it when men don't even help themselves and care nore about what we think or don't think of men and punishing us for mentioning it that they do about trying to fix the problem even when their own biggest problem is eachother.

I dont care what any woman in prison has done. Rape is not an acceptable punishment and being ok with that even if the woman is a sex offender herself, well it makes me as bad as she is then doesn't it. If I'm happy to stand by and watch it happen and not say anything.

I dont care if a man/male is in prison for a parking violation and is the kindest man/male on the planet. He doesn't belong in a womens prison.

Whatever shit is happening in the male estate , the answer is to try and fix that , not try and get transferred to the womens estate so you can try and bring the standards down the the males level.

We are not here to stroke the egos of men /males and solve all our problems only after we have sorted out evseyone else's. If they chose not to then that's not our fault.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Our letter is here (scroll down...!):

www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2021/03/04/lettersits-no-sin-keep-open-country-church-has-served-1000-years/

Any mention of men suffering in any way will earn you three accusations of 'what aboutery, a 'poor men's' and someone saying it is not a woman's problem. Each and every time.

Rooty I will agree with you here as I have noticed it too, even when it is of some relevance to the discussion. However this discussion is different as it is specifically about being housed in a female prison. There is no need for other discussions.

Text of our letter: women's prisons are a definitive example of a space that must be single-sex

That's quite the signatory list, KPSS

Again, thank you for what you are doing.

The only option here is a "third space" - but this opens the door for people claiming trans identity to target trans people.

That is an interesting point R00ty, and I know you agree that males should not be in a female estate so I am addressing this point a but more generally.

Im sure it is absolutely true that some people will claim trans identity to target trans people, in the same way that it appears that some people will claim trans identity to access female people.

It has also transpired that we have more than one trans person who admitted that they attacked a woman specifically because they (the attacker) was trans.

‘Karen Jones’, who was convicted of manslaughter as an 18 yr old male, served time in prison and soon after release committed an horrific attack on a woman because Karen wanted to access transition surgery in prison.

It appears that the MoJ have inadvertently created an incentive to commit violent crime by making it easier to access free transition surgery in prison than on the outside. I wonder if that was mentioned in the court case?

Karen incidentally has been feted and gave a speech in the House of Lords. I don’t imagine much of that speech mentioned that Karen attacked an innocent woman (who actually worked in a shop set up to help people like Karen become more ‘womanly’) purely because Karen was trans and wanted some free surgery in prison.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5440153/amp/Trans-convict-invited-speak-House-Lords.html

The only option here is a "third space" - but this opens the door for people claiming trans identity to target trans people.

Which “people” specifically would do this? Name the problem. The problem is men. Again and loudly for the people at the back.

THIS IS NOT WOMEN’S PROBLEM TO SOLVE.

Women’s spaces are not to be used to shelter gender non conforming men from others men.

Women’s spaces are for women and women alone.

Sort your fucking house out men.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Good god. If men/males put as much effort into sorting their own shit put as they do trying to remove womens spaces away from them wed all he better off.

We are not going to sit here trying to work out how to solve problems women are facing in ways that doesn't make men feel bad for their part in it when men don't even help themselves and care nore about what we think or don't think of men and punishing us for mentioning it that they do about trying to fix the problem even when their own biggest problem is eachother.

I dont care what any woman in prison has done. Rape is not an acceptable punishment and being ok with that even if the woman is a sex offender herself, well it makes me as bad as she is then doesn't it. If I'm happy to stand by and watch it happen and not say anything.

I dont care if a man/male is in prison for a parking violation and is the kindest man/male on the planet. He doesn't belong in a womens prison.

Whatever shit is happening in the male estate , the answer is to try and fix that , not try and get transferred to the womens estate so you can try and bring the standards down the the males level.

We are not here to stroke the egos of men /males and solve all our problems only after we have sorted out evseyone else's. If they chose not to then that's not our fault.

I have never once said that males should be transferred into the female prison, or that rape is OK.

All I dared to say was that we need to think about a solution, not just a no.

@AfternoonToffee

Any mention of men suffering in any way will earn you three accusations of 'what aboutery, a 'poor men's' and someone saying it is not a woman's problem. Each and every time.

Rooty I will agree with you here as I have noticed it too, even when it is of some relevance to the discussion. However this discussion is different as it is specifically about being housed in a female prison. There is no need for other discussions.

Thanks. I think what I am trying to get at is what people propose the solution is.

@NeedtoKnow101

It's not about derailing. It's just about asking how this would actually work - if this was to be successful in a court, we would need actual solutions, not just 'NO!'

The solution is a dedicated space on the male estate where any male with a trans identity is kept safe from the general population.

All I dared to say was that we need to think about a solution, not just a no.

Why is it always down to women to think of a solution to male problems?