Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

[FindTheTruth]

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
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Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
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Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)



1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)



1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.



1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.

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Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
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AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

@Datun

The only option here is a "third space" - but this opens the door for people claiming trans identity to target trans people.

But five minutes ago you said

I just don't agree with the narrative that (many) people deliberately change gender to get into prisons to attack people.

Well it was a lot longer ago, but yes, I did, and I stand by it.

Just because I don't believe the number of deliberate gender changes is high doesn't mean I dont agree that there needs to be a third space, for many reasons.

@ArcheryAnnie

On MN, men are always violent, ready to pounce, a danger

We are talking here about rapists, Rooty. Convicted rapists, who have already caused immeasurable hurt to women, and who are thus enabled by the state to carry on causing immeasurable hurt to more women, this time in prison.

Amazingly enough, it's fairly sensible to talk about convicted rapists, most of whom have shown no remorse or taken any responsibility for their violent crimes, as "a danger".

Yes, we are.

But as part of the wider debate on the issues, toilets and the like, wouldn't you agree that men are presented in that way?

You're saying males will identify as trans to target transwomen but not identify as trans to target women ?

Shall we all stop talking about vulnerable womens rights to not be raped in prison to have a chat about how some men are good?
What is your point and whats it got to do with vulnerable women being raped in prison?

👏

Just because I don't believe the number of deliberate gender changes is high

You don't think one in fifty is high? What about one in ten?

@Datun

You're saying males will identify as trans to target transwomen but not identify as trans to target women ?

I didn't say it never happens , I said it's not high. And it's equally as likely to happen in a 'trans ' prison.

Rooty, no, I don't.

What I do find extraordinary is that on a thread where we are talking about serious crimes, you want us to stop talking about serious crimes, and instead focus our attention on all the men who don't commit serious crimes.

I am more interested in talking about how to protect women - including women who have also committed crimes - from being raped. (Or raped again, for many of those women in prison.)

@ArcheryAnnie

Rooty, no, I don't.

What I do find extraordinary is that on a thread where we are talking about serious crimes, you want us to stop talking about serious crimes, and instead focus our attention on all the men who don't commit serious crimes.

I am more interested in talking about how to protect women - including women who have also committed crimes - from being raped. (Or raped again, for many of those women in prison.)

No I don't want you to stop talking about serious crimes or focus your attention elsewhere. It was a minor point in a thread.

I agree with you on your second part

I didn't say it never happens , I said it's not high.

It is high.

You're saying males will identify as trans to target transwomen but not identify as trans to target women ?

Rooty tacitly acknowledged that this might happen but said it wasn't fair to replace "woman" with "trans", which I took to mean that the apparently unthinkable idea of males faking being trans wasn't a problem until it affected MTF trans people.

Actually I took it as a shitty bad faith argument.

I am more interested in talking about how to protect women - including women who have also committed crimes - from being raped. (Or raped again, for many of those women in prison)

Yes, absolutely.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You're saying males will identify as trans to target transwomen but not identify as trans to target women ?

Rooty tacitly acknowledged that this might happen but said it wasn't fair to replace "woman" with "trans", which I took to mean that the apparently unthinkable idea of males faking being trans wasn't a problem until it affected MTF trans people.

Actually I took it as a shitty bad faith argument.

Well it would be, if I thought that. I've acknowledged several times that I see the issue with prisons and agree with OP that it cannot happen. My point was what is the solution, because making a 'trans prison' transfers the problem, and that's not progresion, it's NIMBY.

Thanks though.

My point was what is the solution, because making a 'trans prison' transfers the problem, and that's not progresion, it's NIMBY.

Women are saying no to males in female prisons. It will reduce the risk of male inmate violence to zero.

There are many wealthy trans organisations like stonewall who you need to ask to do the same for a trans prison.

NIMBY?

More like fox and hen house.

@Datun

My point was what is the solution, because making a 'trans prison' transfers the problem, and that's not progresion, it's NIMBY.

Women are saying no to males in female prisons. It will reduce the risk of male inmate violence to zero.

There are many wealthy trans organisations like stonewall who you need to ask to do the same for a trans prison.

But why does it have to be like this? Why can't everyone work together? Why is it we've said this so this has happened so sorry you're on your own?

@ErrolTheDragon

NIMBY?

More like fox and hen house.

Not if you follow the same argument.

If you can't change sex as is argued on here daily, transmen are still women.

Or by women say no do we only care about those who identify as a woman? Once you identify as a man, you're off to the wolves?

Ask stonewall. Perhaps you'll have more luck getting an answer to why they want to eliminate sex as a protected characteristic.

@Datun

Ask stonewall. Perhaps you'll have more luck getting an answer to why they want to eliminate sex as a protected characteristic.

You're derailing.

So because stonewall are doing something you don't agree with, sod the biologically born females who now identify as male?

Feminism, where we support all women except those who dont do what we want?

My point was what is the solution, because making a 'trans prison' transfers the problem, and that's not progresion, it's NIMBY

This doesn't make any sense. The status quo was males in the male estate, female prisoners in female prisons (with a couple of exceptions for very high-security women). The current situation is a change from the previous situation. It has been made a women's problem - and by problem, I mean nightmare. But somehow any alternative solution may potentially disadvantage males so much that it must be argued against, and is somehow a fault of the women.

My preferred solution: go back to how it was, which is male prisoners in the male estate, and female prisoners in the female estate, but this time, tackle the rape culture in male prisons, and make it possible for male prisoners to serve out their terms without experiencing more violence, including male prisoners who are gender nonconforming in any way, whether they are rapists themselves or not.

No idea where you got any of that from what I said. As far as I know, transmen are likely to be housed in the female estate, they're still female and afaik don't have the offending profile of males.
No one here is saying sod the females, regardless of how they identify.

Anyway back to the thread.

Here is an article about today's proceedings. Sorry if it's already been posted, I had a look but didn't see it.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/03/trans-prisoners-needs-cannot-come-cost-safety-female-inmates/

Or by women say no do we only care about those who identify as a woman? Once you identify as a man, you're off to the wolves?

Transmen are usually housed in the female estate anyway. Nobody is throwing transmen to the wolves.

The current situation is a change from the previous situation. It has been made a women's problem - and by problem, I mean nightmare. But somehow any alternative solution may potentially disadvantage males so much that it must be argued against, and is somehow a fault of the women.

Exactly.

Women are trying to roll back a change that has resulted in at least seven avoidable sex offences. And uncovered the fact that no one has any stats on GRC holding transwomen in prisons and trans organisations don't seem to to give a monkeys.

Alternative link to the telegraph piece.

archive.is/Kiepq

@7Days

The only option here is a third space- but that opens up the door for those claiming a trans identity to target trans people

Imagine such a thing to happen. We should make sure bo such loopholes exist, in case someone gets hurt.

This is what I said, you replied by with, "good point, but all you mean is that, at least its not happening to us"

So we both agree it's a legitimate point. I'm sure you dont actively want to see women put at risk. I certainly dont want to see trans people put at risk either -

I've always thought a third space would solve this problem - it makes everyone safer. But I've been told its transphobic to seek this compromise.
When women object to be the ones bearing the brunt of male violence - even though a compromise exists- we're bigots???