Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

[FindTheTruth]

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
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Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
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Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)



1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)



1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.



1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.

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Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
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AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

So it's fine that 94% of women are sexually assaulted by other women then. Jakers that's a pretty revolting attitude

It isn't 94% of women, is it. It's 94% of all the assaults which happen. In a female space. And no of course it isn't fine, take your bad faith arguments to someone else.

The only option here is a third space- but that opens up the door for those claiming a trans identity to target trans people

Imagine such a thing to happen. We should make sure bo such loopholes exist, in case someone gets hurt.

@PotholeParadies

Rooty. Go carefully. Some of us are not from nice comfy middle-class backgrounds where the most oppressed person they ever met was the first ever trans person they met.

Some of us are working class, from shit comp city schools where no-one got 5 GCSEs A-C, and number female ex-prisoners in our extended families.

You have no idea of my background.

The most oppressed person I know isn't trans.

But, it is true that under no single circumstance will we accept anything other than women are victims and men are evil. I can't think of one.

Women in prison are possibly the most vulnerable population in Britain, and more than half have already experienced abuse of various types as children. 70% are survivors of domestic abuse. Nearly half committed the offences they did in order to support other people. The overwhelming majority are in prison for nonviolent crimes; very few are violent, or sexual offenders.

And yet any old male rapist and/or murderer can join them, and get access to this absolute smorgasbord of potential new victims, just by identifying as female.

It's just awful. It's a national disgrace.

It really is.

Incidentally @PotholeParadies for clarity I don't actually think prisoners on the whole (except your violent offenders, your sexual offenders etc etc) are necessarily bad people. As I say, you don't know my background.

My point was more a general one about sexism.

@7Days

The only option here is a third space- but that opens up the door for those claiming a trans identity to target trans people

Imagine such a thing to happen. We should make sure bo such loopholes exist, in case someone gets hurt.

Clever point, but replacing women with trans isn't really a progression , is it. It's just a "well at least it's not happening to us".

I don't see how women can sort everything out. And I don't see men offering to help, really, with the stuff seen as 'women's issues'. Or with certain types of men's issues.

No. It's our job, as women to do everything, and coddle everyone else.

But, it is true that under no single circumstance will we accept anything other than women are victims and men are evil. I can't think of one.

What an odd comment.

Its got nothing to do with men being evil what are you talking about?
No male should be in womens prisons, no matter how not evil that man is or even if the women are wicked.
Its quite simple.

@ErrolTheDragon

But, it is true that under no single circumstance will we accept anything other than women are victims and men are evil. I can't think of one.

What an odd comment.

Really?

You don't think these threads condemn men and support women unconditionally?

@RootyT00t

Incidentally *@PotholeParadies* for clarity I don't actually think prisoners on the whole (except your violent offenders, your sexual offenders etc etc) are necessarily bad people. As I say, you don't know my background.

My point was more a general one about sexism.

It's a back ground where you saw fit to grandstand about "even female prisoners". Case closed. If you are genuinely concerned about male prisoners in there own right as opposed to a distraction technique. I have given you two charities I support and I'm sure you can find others.

I will not be responding to you or your posts further.

They support women not being locked in with rapists yes.

@JosieJarker

They support women not being locked in with rapists yes.

Obviously.

Clever point, but replacing women with trans isn't really a progression , is it. It's just a "well at least it's not happening to us"

When you say "trans" here, you mean "transwomen", as transmen are still usually housed in the female estate.

So - why are women always the ones deemed disposable? Why are they the ones deemed to be selfish when they don't want to be raped while locked in a room, unable to leave? Why is this whole mess considered a problem for women to solve?

@PotholeParadies

I had a family member in prison, now deceased.

I don't judge anyone. I genuinely apologise for offence but if you knew my background you'd get it.

My comment was merely the fact that every point made in relation to women has a positive spin and males a negative.

So what are you talking about?
Men being evil has got zero to do with the conversation.

as transmen are still usually housed in the female estate.

Often by choice.

@JosieJarker

So what are you talking about? Men being evil has got zero to do with the conversation.

It does though. On MN, men are always violent, ready to pounce, a danger.

That colours any debate.

Shall we all stop talking about vulnerable womens rights to not be raped in prison to have a chat about how some men are good?
What is your point and whats it got to do with vulnerable women being raped in prison?

Right now there are around 3,100 UK women prisoners in total.

Approx 40% are inside for non payment of TV licences.

UK prison statistics 2018 sexual offenders
128 women
13,580 men

There are 3 male sex offenders for each female prisoners.

70% of victims of sex offences are women.

There are 60 known transwomen sex offenders.

No, we are not "in this together". Cut the crap. Sex offending is sex based violence.
No ifs but or maybes. Just NO.

You don't think these threads condemn men and support women unconditionally?

Not in general. This particular thread is principally about convicted male sex offenders so it's really not the posters here being judgemental for no good reason.

Maybe men as a class should stop being so violent and dangerous if they dont want us to keep mentioning it?
It doesnt matter how good or evil a man is, not a concept I buy into by the way, no male belongs in a womens prison.

On MN, men are always violent, ready to pounce, a danger.

Don't be daft. Many of us have perfectly pleasant male partners, sons, fathers. Ridiculous hyperbole.

The only option here is a "third space" - but this opens the door for people claiming trans identity to target trans people.

But five minutes ago you said

I just don't agree with the narrative that (many) people deliberately change gender to get into prisons to attack people.

On MN, men are always violent, ready to pounce, a danger

We are talking here about rapists, Rooty. Convicted rapists, who have already caused immeasurable hurt to women, and who are thus enabled by the state to carry on causing immeasurable hurt to more women, this time in prison.

Amazingly enough, it's fairly sensible to talk about convicted rapists, most of whom have shown no remorse or taken any responsibility for their violent crimes, as "a danger".