Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

[FindTheTruth]

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
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Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
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Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)



1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)



1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.



1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.

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Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
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AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

@Whatwouldscullydo

Discussing the rates if violence, sexual abuse, rape etc by the male sex class is sexism? The biggest threat to men/males is other men. Is that sexism to recognise that too?

No.

Anti men?

That's a bit of a generalisation!

I personally think the situation in male prisons and especially young offenders facilities are terrible. There are high levels of mental health issues and drug use. I would imagine that bullying, violence and sex offending is not uncommon.

The prisons reform trust work in this area and they seem good.

I think that to assume that those who are concerned about males in women's prisons just don't like men is a very sweeping statement.

When you say 'don't like men' do you mean saying that the only people who can really sort this out are men?

They hold most of the power in government etc etc, women have been trying forever to reduce male violence and sexual violence whoever the victim, and don't get anywhere really. Also we have quite a bit on our plates already!

I don't think that adds up to being anti men.

I'm no longer engaging with people who derail important threads about violence against women to push their personal agenda. I don't think such people have anything of interest to say.

'Your willingness to divide men and women is sad. And you don't see that it makes the issue worse.'

What do you mean by this please?

And as for echo chamber- anyone can post, no one can edit or delete. Or block other people's posts.

Twitter for eg is far worse with the block lists and whatnot. (I'm not on there but follow links sometimes).

Here you have to stand by what you say.

@NiceGerbil

Anti men?

That's a bit of a generalisation!

I personally think the situation in male prisons and especially young offenders facilities are terrible. There are high levels of mental health issues and drug use. I would imagine that bullying, violence and sex offending is not uncommon.

The prisons reform trust work in this area and they seem good.

I think that to assume that those who are concerned about males in women's prisons just don't like men is a very sweeping statement.

When you say 'don't like men' do you mean saying that the only people who can really sort this out are men?

They hold most of the power in government etc etc, women have been trying forever to reduce male violence and sexual violence whoever the victim, and don't get anywhere really. Also we have quite a bit on our plates already!

I don't think that adds up to being anti men.

Read the various threads on trans. There's an agenda.

Any mention of men suffering in any way will earn you three accusations of 'what aboutery, a 'poor men's' and someone saying it is not a woman's problem. Each and every time.

Discussing the rates if violence, sexual abuse, rape etc by the male sex class is sexism? The biggest threat to men/males is other men. Is that sexism to recognise that too?

Apparently so.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm no longer engaging with people who derail important threads about violence against women to push their personal agenda. I don't think such people have anything of interest to say.

I'm sure il struggle on without you taking my sentences out of context, jumping on my interactions with other posters and generally trying your very best to stir up a pile on.

The irony of you posting about personal agendas would be funny if it wasn't so ridiculous.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm no longer engaging with people who derail important threads about violence against women to push their personal agenda. I don't think such people have anything of interest to say.

60 seconds after posting this you once again referenced one of my posts. Are you intended on desisting from this or is your plan just to post about me but not directly? Just so I know what to ignore.

@NiceGerbil

'Your willingness to divide men and women is sad. And you don't see that it makes the issue worse.'

What do you mean by this please?

And as for echo chamber- anyone can post, no one can edit or delete. Or block other people's posts.

Twitter for eg is far worse with the block lists and whatnot. (I'm not on there but follow links sometimes).

Here you have to stand by what you say.

Well, when we say that we as women and men as re not our problem, it divides us.

To combat these issues we need everyone together.

Re your echo chambers, if you look a page back youl see where I was told to join the men pages. That is tame compared to the usual outpouring of me being an apologist, misognyst, males slave etc etc

@CaptainMerica

The thing about this debate that I rarely see mentioned is that currently men are at much higher risk of being raped in prison, including trans prisoners in male prisons. That's not ok either.

The solution obviously isn't to move that risk to women. Maybe rapists should all be dumped in a pit somewhere.

Well of course men in prison are at higher risk of rape, what a ridiculous statement. As rape can only be committed by a man and there shouldn't be any men in the female estate this is what you would expect to see.

This issue has nothing to do with women and everything to do with men. Rape in male prisons needs to be addressed but the answer is not to move sex offenders into the female estate. There should be no rapes in a female prison, there shouldn't be the opportunity.

Hang on though.

The reason transwomen are being moved out of male prisons is not so that males are protected.

@justasking111

Question, 6% of sexual assaults in women's prisons by trans. Who is carrying out the other 94%??

Well I guess no-one here knows. You might want to think about it though.

Its not for the benefit of the women in prison either.
So why is it happening?
Who benefits?
And is that benefit worth the cost of women being raped in prison?
The answer is no.

Well of course men in prison are at higher risk of rape, what a ridiculous statement. As rape can only be committed by a man and there shouldn't be any men in the female estate this is what you would expect to see.

This issue has nothing to do with women and everything to do with men. Rape in male prisons needs to be addressed but the answer is not to move sex offenders into the female estate. There should be no rapes in a female prison, there shouldn't be the opportunity.

Women have the human right to prisons free from males. The Geneva Convention prohibits female prisoners of war being housed with males. I think that's a reasonable yardstick for the U.K. prison service.

Well I guess no-one here knows. You might want to think about it though.

Why? There thankfully aren't too many MTFs in the female estate at the current time. Arguably there shouldn't be any so there would be 0% rather than 6%.

Any mention of men suffering in any way will earn you three accusations of 'what aboutery, a 'poor men's' and someone saying it is not a woman's problem. Each and every time.

We've spotted the pattern. I used to be a feminist on thestudentroom. Every time there was a thread about a women's issue, multiple people tried to derail it by bringing up men's issues. At first I engaged in debate.

Then I noticed that when there was a thread about men's issues, I never brought up women's issues and asked myself why not. And I said, "um, because that would be really rude!" Then I asked myself, "would it be okay to keep bringing up dog welfare on a thread trying to draw attention to equine welfare?" And I said, nope!

And then I tried to start a thread about men's welfare in prison, and publicising the Howard League (prisoner welfare is an issue I care about, actually).

None of the men who usually brought up male prisoners participated, and my thread (that I'd spent an hour writing) got deleted!

Anyway. howardleague.org/ go there.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Well of course men in prison are at higher risk of rape, what a ridiculous statement. As rape can only be committed by a man and there shouldn't be any men in the female estate this is what you would expect to see.

This issue has nothing to do with women and everything to do with men. Rape in male prisons needs to be addressed but the answer is not to move sex offenders into the female estate. There should be no rapes in a female prison, there shouldn't be the opportunity.

Women have the human right to prisons free from males. The Geneva Convention prohibits female prisoners of war being housed with males. I think that's a reasonable yardstick for the U.K. prison service.

I don't think there was many transwomen around at the time of the Geneva Connection. Things change, and things get messy.

The only option here is a "third space" - but this opens the door for people claiming trans identity to target trans people.

@PotholeParadies

Any mention of men suffering in any way will earn you three accusations of 'what aboutery, a 'poor men's' and someone saying it is not a woman's problem. Each and every time.

We've spotted the pattern. I used to be a feminist on thestudentroom. Every time there was a thread about a women's issue, multiple people tried to derail it by bringing up men's issues. At first I engaged in debate.

Then I noticed that when there was a thread about men's issues, I never brought up women's issues and asked myself why not. And I said, "um, because that would be really rude!" Then I asked myself, "would it be okay to keep bringing up dog welfare on a thread trying to draw attention to equine welfare?" And I said, nope!

And then I tried to start a thread about men's welfare in prison, and publicising the Howard League (prisoner welfare is an issue I care about, actually).

None of the men who usually brought up male prisoners participated, and my thread (that I'd spent an hour writing) got deleted!

Anyway. howardleague.org/ go there.

If I saw a thread slating any group, I would mention the other side. Of course I would.

Nothing in life works if you only stubbornly determinedly think about one side.

And here- www.prisonlit.org/

Perhaps you could even start a thread in another part of the site about it. I may or may not participate. I am a soft touch for money woman of many causes, but I have developed a rule about them all, and that is that if someone from Battersea Dogs' Home turns up on my cat thread, then that person deserves to be told to go away. If they don't and continue to ignore the social norm that you don't disrupt the awareness event for kidney disease by trying to set up your heart disease event in the middle of it, I will conclude it is motivated by hatred of cats, rather than passion for dogs.

Women in prison are possibly the most vulnerable population in Britain, and more than half have already experienced abuse of various types as children. 70% are survivors of domestic abuse. Nearly half committed the offences they did in order to support other people. The overwhelming majority are in prison for nonviolent crimes; very few are violent, or sexual offenders.

And yet any old male rapist and/or murderer can join them, and get access to this absolute smorgasbord of potential new victims, just by identifying as female.

It's just awful. It's a national disgrace.

I'm not negating the domestic abuse part,

but again.

Women really can do no wrong. Ever. On any of these threads. Men are always wrong.

Even female prisoners are victims.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Well I guess no-one here knows. You might want to think about it though.

Why? There thankfully aren't too many MTFs in the female estate at the current time. Arguably there shouldn't be any so there would be 0% rather than 6%.

So it's fine that 94% of women are sexually assaulted by other women then. Jakers that's a pretty revolting attitude

@RootyT00t

I'm not negating the domestic abuse part,

but again.

Women really can do no wrong. Ever. On any of these threads. Men are always wrong.

Even female prisoners are victims.

Amazingly, it's possible to be both a criminal and a victim. Women in prison are frequently both.

The fact that they are criminals as well as victims is no reason to victimise them even further. We don't have corporal punishment here, so the punishment for a crime shouldn't include "rape by a fellow criminal".

But the men don't join in much at all when it's problems that effect women and girls.

Many actively oppose our efforts to improve things.

Things that we care about, serious issues, are often hived away in women's or family sections in the media. When they are actually societal issues that everyone should care about and know about.

The tendancy of many men to see these things as 'not their problem', even subconsciously, is real. I've seen it in action.

And most of our establishment is still run by men, so they have the means if they want change.

I don't see how women can sort everything out. And I don't see men offering to help, really, with the stuff seen as 'women's issues'. Or with certain types of men's issues. Around rape in male prisons, men joke about it. I've never spoken to one who said how awful it is I donate to a charity etc

I'm sure you won't like that post but it's how I feel.

Rooty. Go carefully. Some of us are not from nice comfy middle-class backgrounds where the most oppressed person they ever met was the first ever trans person they met.

Some of us are working class, from shit comp city schools where no-one got 5 GCSEs A-C, and number female ex-prisoners in our extended families.