Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

[FindTheTruth]

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
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Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
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Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)



1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)



1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.



1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.

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Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
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AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

@FamilyOfAliens

Which makes men more likely to be rapists than women.

A woman can’t be a rapist as she doesn’t have a penis.

Yes.

My point was , it's the presence of the anatomy (which they can't help) that makes one group capable and the other not.

So it's hardly fair to go ahhh but women don't rape!

No, because they can't.

As a side note though, in other countries females can. Depends on your definition.

Let's not pretend women have never ever in the history of the world taken advantage of a man.

@RootyT00t

As a side note though, in other countries females can. Depends on your definition.

Let's not pretend women have never ever in the history of the world taken advantage of a man.

Look up the stats on sexual violence.

Need to know why?

I'm aware of the disparity.

You said men are more likely than women to be rapists. It’s the “more likely” bit that’s incorrect. Women are not likely at all to rapists because they do not have a penis.

And what happens in other countries is irrelevant to this thread, obviously.

@FamilyOfAliens

You said men are more likely than women to be rapists. It’s the “more likely” bit that’s incorrect. Women are not likely at all to rapists because they do not have a penis.

And what happens in other countries is irrelevant to this thread, obviously.

Thanks for stepping in to correct my language on a point I didn't make in the first place. Pretty sure that's not the first time you've done they to me.

If the argument is that 'women do it too' to men when it comes to sex offences and that's an argument for putting people who have raped women with their penis in women's prisons

Then that surely undermines the reason for single sex prisons??

Back in the real world.

Who are the group who are most likely to rape or sexually assault men? That's right, other men.

@NiceGerbil

If the argument is that 'women do it too' to men when it comes to sex offences and that's an argument for putting people who have raped women with their penis in women's prisons

Then that surely undermines the reason for single sex prisons??

Back in the real world.

Who are the group who are most likely to rape or sexually assault men? That's right, other men.

No that wasn't my argument. I've said many, many times I agree the prisons should be separate.

All I said was that the statement men rape and women don't is a bit of an unfair argument.

Why are people who agree with the OP that SINBU in her post persisting in trying to derail this important and specific thread with their personal issues?

I don't know where Root is getting their information, but when one in fifty male prisoners are identifying as women, increasing to one in ten for the traveller cohort, it's perfectly obvious that the policy is a safeguarding failure.

However, the actual point, is that women in those prisons should not be forced into cells with male born criminals, irrespective of the reasons those males want it to happen.

Absolutely.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Why are people who agree with the OP that SINBU in her post persisting in trying to derail this important and specific thread with their personal issues?

By that, you mean me.

Although I don't think I have any personal issues.

I am far from the only poster who has talked about other things while agreeing with the OP.

Hardly a surprise to see you coming for me again though.

Unfair to who exactly?

Why is it that on a thread about women being locked in cells and forced to shower with biological males putting them at increased risk of all sorts, a risk that can be completely removed by not allowing biological males into the prison cells and showers etc I mean its one of the easiest things to avoid given it has an absolute Solution, we still somehow have people who want to male sure it's made quite clear it's not all men/males

Obviously not given many people in this thread will be happily married to men, have sons etc

Don't you every get tired of starting or ending every sentence with "not all men/males"

This is about women. Not protecting the reputations of males or trying to make people care less about the women things Happen to by making sure we know they could be bad people too. What is that about exactly?

My point was , it's the presence of the anatomy (which they can't help) that makes one group capable and the other not

So it's hardly fair to go ahhh but women don't rape!

No, because they can't

Rooty, male don't rape BECAUSE they have a penis. They rape because they choose to.

Have caught up.

Rooty if you don't think that prisons should be mixed sex then I don't really understand what point you're trying to make.

This conversation cannot happen if the point cannot be made that transwomen are male.

The MOJ said 'only' 7 assaults/ rapes had taken place. Only???

And remember that would be people without a GRC. Those with one are recorded as women and so there are no stats.

I am also ??? about the idea men rape because they have a penis.

That goes against everything we know globally about power, socialisation etc

Hardly a surprise to see you coming for me again though.

Not a surprise that you recognise your own behaviour.

Rooty if you don't think that prisons should be mixed sex then I don't really understand what point you're trying to make.

This conversation cannot happen if the point cannot be made that transwomen are male.

No, it can't.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Hardly a surprise to see you coming for me again though.

Not a surprise that you recognise your own behaviour.

Haven't a clue what that means. I don't single you out in the way you do me.

Whataboutery about other issues is entirely misplaced on a thread about women being exposed to sexually violent males against their will with no consideration for their well-being.

@NiceGerbil

Have caught up.

Rooty if you don't think that prisons should be mixed sex then I don't really understand what point you're trying to make.

This conversation cannot happen if the point cannot be made that transwomen are male.

The MOJ said 'only' 7 assaults/ rapes had taken place. Only???

And remember that would be people without a GRC. Those with one are recorded as women and so there are no stats.

My original post in this thread was only in response to the usual anti-men sweeping stwt ments where anyone pointing out vulnerabilities in males is told it isn't men's problems, where people are only concerned about women. I agree with the agenda in hand.

But as usual, the same collective of posters cherry pick a sentence to pick apart and mock so that 5 pages on I'm still defending the same thing I said as a passing comment.

It's a common behaviour on threads of these type so it's all fine.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Unfair to who exactly?

Why is it that on a thread about women being locked in cells and forced to shower with biological males putting them at increased risk of all sorts, a risk that can be completely removed by not allowing biological males into the prison cells and showers etc I mean its one of the easiest things to avoid given it has an absolute Solution, we still somehow have people who want to male sure it's made quite clear it's not all men/males

Obviously not given many people in this thread will be happily married to men, have sons etc

Don't you every get tired of starting or ending every sentence with "not all men/males"

This is about women. Not protecting the reputations of males or trying to make people care less about the women things Happen to by making sure we know they could be bad people too. What is that about exactly?

No, I don't, because I think it's important.

Well, if threads displayed this sort of behaviour (is total sexism) towards women, there'd be total uproar.
Somehow it's fine when it's males.

My original post in this thread was only in response to the usual anti-men sweeping stwt ments where anyone pointing out vulnerabilities in males is told it isn't men's problems

As I said, a thread about male sexual violence against women in prison that you "had a nosey at" isn't really appropriate for your personal NAMALT hobby horse. There are lots of male focussed corners of the internet which would appreciate it.

Discussing the rates if violence, sexual abuse, rape etc by the male sex class is sexism? The biggest threat to men/males is other men. Is that sexism to recognise that too?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

My original post in this thread was only in response to the usual anti-men sweeping stwt ments where anyone pointing out vulnerabilities in males is told it isn't men's problems

As I said, a thread about male sexual violence against women in prison that you "had a nosey at" isn't really appropriate for your personal NAMALT hobby horse. There are lots of male focussed corners of the internet which would appreciate it.

Good quote, but totally our of context.

A PP asked what brought me to the thread. I answered the question.

Your willingness to divide men and women is sad. And you don't see that it makes the issue worse.

Incidentally, the thread is about whether prisons should be separate. I have agreed several times that they should.

I only raised the point that that creates an issue with transmen, which sparked the rape debate.

Sadly, every single thread in relation to trans cannot be an echo chamber , as much as the 'we women say no' collective would like it to be.

Before we forget: this thread is not about men as a class. This thread is about women's human rights not to be housed with biological males in prison, and the effects these policies can have on women.