Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

[FindTheTruth]

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
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Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
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Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)



1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)



1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.



1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.

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Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
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AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

Males, intact or not, ‘benign’ or not, do not belong in female prisons.

Sex is immutable.

@Ninkanink

Males, intact or not, ‘benign’ or not, do not belong in female prisons.

Sex is immutable.

Benign? As opposed to?

I don't believe there's many people who say sorry I'm a woman to change prisons. Do they exist? Yes

So how do we know who is genuine then?you think we should allow any male access because most are ok? Same shit were told about other single sex spaces.

The only acceptable number of female prisoners assaulted by male prisoners is 0. The only way to ensure this to keep ALL male prisoners out of the female estate.

My point being even if the male individual is not a rapist/violent offender/murderer/whatever else, and even if it were possible to prove without a shadow of a doubt (somehow) that the individual was not a risk or threat in any way, it still would not be right to place them in a female prison.

@RootyT00t start a thread called

Break it down for me

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

It's a good place to start!

@Whatsnewpussyhat

I don't believe there's many people who say sorry I'm a woman to change prisons. Do they exist? Yes

So how do we know who is genuine then?you think we should allow any male access because most are ok? Same shit were told about other single sex spaces.

The only acceptable number of female prisoners assaulted by male prisoners is 0. The only way to ensure this to keep ALL male prisoners out of the female estate.

I agree.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

I don't believe there's many people who say sorry I'm a woman to change prisons. Do they exist? Yes

So how do we know who is genuine then?you think we should allow any male access because most are ok? Same shit were told about other single sex spaces.

The only acceptable number of female prisoners assaulted by male prisoners is 0. The only way to ensure this to keep ALL male prisoners out of the female estate.

Out of interest, what are we doing with the transmen?

If I remember correctly, the prison service (officers association?) gave evidence to the effect that male prisoners absolutely would claim transgender status simply in order to be moved to an easier environment - whatever their motivations. Hopefully someone with a better memory can help me out here?

twitter.com/RichardJGarside/status/1367203215020818433?s=19

Richard Garside who knows a thing or two about prisons, has this to say:

"The current Prison Service approach has turned women's prisons, but not men's prisons (of course), into mixed-sex institutions.

Over the past two days the court has heard about the incoherence and unfairness of the current approach."

Out of interest, what are we doing with the transmen?

Trans men are housed in the female estate.

@CaptainMerica

The thing about this debate that I rarely see mentioned is that currently men are at much higher risk of being raped in prison, including trans prisoners in male prisons. That's not ok either.

The solution obviously isn't to move that risk to women. Maybe rapists should all be dumped in a pit somewhere.

Not women’s problem to fix.

@titchy

Out of interest, what are we doing with the transmen?

Trans men are housed in the female estate.

Everyone is housed in the female estate!

They are even making it much bigger to fit everyone in!

Sadly I am not joking!

Transmen would be housed with women, I believe, as it was seen as clearly unsafe to house them among men. Ironically.

However the lack of data again makes it hard to judge.

@titchy

Out of interest, what are we doing with the transmen?

Trans men are housed in the female estate.

See, as much as I've been awkward about equality, it's interesting they will protect transmen but not women.

Thanks for everyone's continued coverage here and on FWR. My brain is too fried to post my summary of today's proceedings now - so will do so tomorrow.

In the meantime, here are details of a letter we wrote that will appear in Telegraph tomorrow:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/03/trans-prisoners-needs-cannot-come-cost-safety-female-inmates/

Not all men are rapists.

All rapists are men.

under the UK definition of rape

@Bowednotbroken

If I remember correctly, the prison service (officers association?) gave evidence to the effect that male prisoners absolutely would claim transgender status simply in order to be moved to an easier environment - whatever their motivations. Hopefully someone with a better memory can help me out here?

Indeed they did. And submitted their testimony to Maria miller's transgender equality report.

The prison service said there are numerous reasons for male offenders to identify as women, including the softer environments, perks, clothes, all sorts of reasons, and yes, they also said in order to predate.

I don't know where Root is getting their information, but when one in fifty male prisoners are identifying as women, increasing to one in ten for the traveller cohort, it's perfectly obvious that the policy is a safeguarding failure.

However, the actual point, is that women in those prisons should not be forced into cells with male born criminals, irrespective of the reasons those males want it to happen.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/09/one-50-prisoners-identify-transsexual-first-figures-show-amid/amp/

As I said before, the alternative is transphobia. Transmen shouldn't lose their right to be placed in the female estate.

Besides, where would the line be? If we're doing it on gender identity, where would the female non-binaries go?

I believe people can change gender

Gender is sex role stereotypes. What has changing 'gender' got to do with keeping prisons single sex? Nothing at all.

Thank you Datun!

Thanks for everyone's continued coverage here and on FWR. My brain is too fried to post my summary of today's proceedings now - so will do so tomorrow.

In the meantime, here are details of a letter we wrote that will appear in Telegraph tomorrow:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/03/trans-prisoners-needs-cannot-come-cost-safety-female-inmates/

I just don't agree with the narrative that (many) people deliberately change gender to get into prisons to attack people.

I don't really care if it is 100, 10 or 1. That 1 is still too many and there should never be a loophole that allows that 1 to get through.

I guess we are back to n+1 being the answer to "How many is too many?"

@ListeningQuietly

Not all men are rapists.

All rapists are men.

under the UK definition of rape

Yes.

Which makes men more likely to be rapists than women. Purely due to their anatomy. Not because they are more likely to want to rape

Question, 6% of sexual assaults in women's prisons by trans. Who is carrying out the other 94%??

Which makes men more likely to be rapists than women.

A woman can’t be a rapist as she doesn’t have a penis.