Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

582 replies

FindTheTruth · 03/03/2021 05:35

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
—————————

Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
—————————

Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



  1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)


  1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)


  1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.


  1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.
—————————

Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
————————-

AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Whatwouldscullydo · 03/03/2021 21:46

You do realise that no transition is actually necessary to get a grc?

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 03/03/2021 21:47

Who are the 2%?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/03/2021 21:47

I don't believe that there are many people who go through the undoubtedly complicated and traumatic process of changing gender (particularly in these times) to get into prisons to prey on folk. Well, until today the MoJ didn't require any of that. Just a simple sentence "I am transgender"

Or have you commented without looking at the specific topic to hand?

picklemewalnuts · 03/03/2021 21:47

"If I aired awful views about Jewish people or black people based on history, people wouldn't say 'oh that's OK, that's true!'"

Rooty that ^^ comment is so incredibly offensive I want to report it. I'm not going to- though I wouldn't discourage anyone else- because it illustrates how you think and the paucity of your position.

--I just hope to goodness no one misreads it and thinks I said such a thing.

RootyT00t · 03/03/2021 21:48

@Whatwouldscullydo

You do realise that no transition is actually necessary to get a grc?
Yes.

Ok il rephrase.

I don't believe there's many people who say sorry I'm a woman to change prisons. Do they exist? Yes. In the same way that extremists of everything will exist.
Do I believe they are common enough for people to be consistently transphobic and paint a world where the poor women and girls will soon be left with nothing? No.

RootyT00t · 03/03/2021 21:49

@picklemewalnuts

"If I aired awful views about Jewish people or black people based on history, people wouldn't say 'oh that's OK, that's true!'"

Rooty that ^^ comment is so incredibly offensive I want to report it. I'm not going to- though I wouldn't discourage anyone else- because it illustrates how you think and the paucity of your position.

--I just hope to goodness no one misreads it and thinks I said such a thing.

I have apologised to someone who took offense.

In hindsight I recognise how it can be offensive, however - my point was simply this.

We would never attempt to justify racism, sexism, homophobia, disablism etc etc etc

So why do we not only justify transphobia but encourage it , with the sentiment of ' but it's true'?

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 03/03/2021 21:49

MN delete posts that are considered transphobic. Not agreeing with you does not equal transphobia.

And right now it is about prisons. It is about vulnerable women being locked up with people who have intact male genitalia.

It’s about women being locked up with male sex offenders.

It’s about the MOJ not knowing how many transgender prisoners there are in the prison estate and where they are housed.

It’s about a rapist with a GRC automatically going into the female prison estate.

RootyT00t · 03/03/2021 21:49

@CuriousaboutSamphire

I don't believe that there are many people who go through the undoubtedly complicated and traumatic process of changing gender (particularly in these times) to get into prisons to prey on folk. Well, until today the MoJ didn't require any of that. Just a simple sentence "I am transgender"

Or have you commented without looking at the specific topic to hand?

If it is the case they can simply use that sentence, then fair enough. But I still don't believe there's many who do that.
CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/03/2021 21:50

I don't believe there's many people who say sorry I'm a woman to change prisons. Do they exist? Yes. In the same way that extremists of everything will exist.
Do I believe they are common enough for people to be consistently transphobic and paint a world where the poor women and girls will soon be left with nothing? No.

So that's a no then! You didn't read anything about the specific topic of the thread!

RootyT00t · 03/03/2021 21:50

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

MN delete posts that are considered transphobic. Not agreeing with you does not equal transphobia.

And right now it is about prisons. It is about vulnerable women being locked up with people who have intact male genitalia.

It’s about women being locked up with male sex offenders.

It’s about the MOJ not knowing how many transgender prisoners there are in the prison estate and where they are housed.

It’s about a rapist with a GRC automatically going into the female prison estate.

I agree about the prisons, I've said that.
Whatwouldscullydo · 03/03/2021 21:50

So what is an acceptable number then? How many wonen must be locked up wjtg biological males and assaulted or living in fear until its acceptable to feel its a problem ?.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/03/2021 21:50

You do realise that there is a court case in progress about exactly this don't you?

titchy · 03/03/2021 21:51

I don't believe that there are many people who go through the undoubtedly complicated and traumatic process of changing gender (particularly in these times) to get into prisons to prey on folk.

Well no the ones that do generally aren't counting on being caught and found guilty Hmm I don't think anyone actively wants to become a prisoner.

But when they get caught the traumatic process of seeing a prison GP and filling in a form is rather appealing if it gets to access to a supply of vulnerable women.

RootyT00t · 03/03/2021 21:51

@Whatwouldscullydo

So what is an acceptable number then? How many wonen must be locked up wjtg biological males and assaulted or living in fear until its acceptable to feel its a problem ?.
I really don't know how many times I can say I agree about the prisons.
CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/03/2021 21:52

But I still don't believe there's many who do that. Whilst denying there is a problem!

RootyT00t · 03/03/2021 21:54

@CuriousaboutSamphire

But I still don't believe there's many who do that. Whilst denying there is a problem!
I'm not denying there's a problem.

I've said I agree about the prisons and think there should be a third space.

I just don't agree with the narrative that (many) people deliberately change gender to get into prisons to attack people.

Just my opinion. Bloody hell. I'm allowed one.

picklemewalnuts · 03/03/2021 21:54

It's not transphobic to say people can't change sex. Some people are unhappy with their sex, some people seek to break the boundaries of society's rigid, regressive and outdated gender expectations, some people seek medical treatment hoping to feel better as a result. No one changes sex.

Whatwouldscullydo · 03/03/2021 21:55

So if you don't believe people can change sex and that its not acceptable in prison to lock women up with biological males, then why do you think uts acceptable for women outside if prison to live with the threat of males by losing their spaces? And given you woukd be viewed as transphobic for thinking that then why do you even bother defending making other services mixed sex elsewhere? Makes no sense

RootyT00t · 03/03/2021 21:56

@picklemewalnuts

It's not transphobic to say people can't change sex. Some people are unhappy with their sex, some people seek to break the boundaries of society's rigid, regressive and outdated gender expectations, some people seek medical treatment hoping to feel better as a result. No one changes sex.
I don't agree they do. They change gender though.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/03/2021 21:57

I just don't agree with the narrative that (many) people deliberately change gender to get into prisons to attack people. No! Some men who ahve been imprisoned for sex offences say they are transgender and the MoJ automatically moved them into the female estate.

Nobody knows/knew precisely how many transwomen are in the female estate because the MoJ identified them as female...

But we can all name a few!

RootyT00t · 03/03/2021 21:57

@Whatwouldscullydo

So if you don't believe people can change sex and that its not acceptable in prison to lock women up with biological males, then why do you think uts acceptable for women outside if prison to live with the threat of males by losing their spaces? And given you woukd be viewed as transphobic for thinking that then why do you even bother defending making other services mixed sex elsewhere? Makes no sense
Because prison is a different kettle of fish. These are violent (if they are) offenders. The rules have to be adapted for people's safety.

I believe people can change gender.

The threat of a woman in a toilet from a transitioned man (who really, really are not interested in invading your space ) is very different to a woman locked in a cell with a rapist. Even I can see that.

RootyT00t · 03/03/2021 21:57

@CuriousaboutSamphire

I just don't agree with the narrative that (many) people deliberately change gender to get into prisons to attack people. No! Some men who ahve been imprisoned for sex offences say they are transgender and the MoJ automatically moved them into the female estate.

Nobody knows/knew precisely how many transwomen are in the female estate because the MoJ identified them as female...

But we can all name a few!

I clearly need to do some reading.
Whatwouldscullydo · 03/03/2021 21:59

Single sex spaces are already mixed gender. There are over 100 genders according to the BBC. Any gender is welcome in the spaces provided they are the appropriate sex fir the space.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/03/2021 21:59

May I suggest the Feminist Chat threads?

RootyT00t · 03/03/2021 21:59

@CuriousaboutSamphire

May I suggest the Feminist Chat threads?
Rootytoot is on the way Wine