Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

[FindTheTruth]

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
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Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
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Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)



1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)



1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.



1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.

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Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
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AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

People with male-bodies are being put into women's prisons.

Men are physically stronger than women and can overpower and intimidate them easily.

Women in prison are vulnerable and do not want to have people with male-bodies in prison with them.

Trans women have male bodies. They remain unarguably men.

'Trans women' have a higher rate of sexual offenders than the rest of the male population (largely offences against females). There is solid evidence of this; I didn't just make it up.

Are all trans women in prison 'real' trans women, or could it be possible that a large percentage of them are actually pretending to be transwomen, so they can either : access women and harass / attack them, or get an easier ride in a women's prison as there is less security etc?

Women should not be put at physical risk by people with male bodies in a women's prison. That includes the staff.

How anyone can argue for people with male-bodies being put in prison with women just beggars belief. I can't believe this is happening.

It's unbelievable how badly we have been fucked over.

*Really?

You don't think many posters have talked about being at risk from men?

Yeh, I do.

I'm interested to know what people think should happen with transmen though*

No I don't think this has been a man bashing thread. It has been about the subject of transwomen in the female prison estate.

Transmen are female, they may not want to be housed in the female estate but there is no reason they should not be. Perhaps a third space would work for them? I don't know.

Rooty to be honest with you this feels a bit like a thread derail to me.

*lifeturnsonadime

This simply puts the feelings of males above the safety of females.

It really saddens me that as a society we are prepared to put women at risk like this.

It saddens me that speaking against this is considered bigoted.

Rooty -

No it doesnt.

It equals the feelings of transwomen with those of women. As it should.*

Forgive me for thinking that this response to my post meant you felt that transwomen should be in the female estate. I think most people would assume that was the case.

What exactly did you mean then?

I'm interested to know what people think should happen with transmen though

Women's estate. Currently I believe they have the option to choose the men's, and I have read so far that all have chosen to stay in the women's estate.

I have also read some asinine trans rights arguments on twitter that transwomen should go to the female estate and transmen to the male estate and that it's too bad if they get raped. No, I am not kidding, and I wish I'd taken a screenshot. If anything could make me more against transwomen in the female estate, that does.

Now, could I ask what you're trying to say if you're not denying scientific sex?

Now, could I ask what you're trying to say if you're not denying scientific sex?

Kinda sounded like all males should be allowed onto the female estate to alleviate the upset of being assumed to be dangerous on account of being male..

Rooty, are you equating a woman's really quite understandable fear that being locked up with a male RAPIST might cause her to be, er, raped, with the feelings of a male-bodied trans prisoner who'd prefer to be housed in a women's jail?

Really?

There are currently two threads now where you've jumped into my interactions with other posters to belittle me.

Could you desist?

Your first post earlier was an attack on me. You desist.

Rooty to be honest with you this feels a bit like a thread derail to me.

I agree. I don't think we should make it all about the personal Wot I Reckon of this poster. This is about important women's rights issues.

True, Eresh. Let's get back to the conversation.

Sounds trans-exclusionary to me, as in excluding transmen from the female estate in which they have a right to be housed, because of their gender reassignment.

I genuinely do think that's transphobic.

I'm interested to know what people think should happen with transmen though

In what sense? What prison estate they should be housed in? The female estate. The huge risk of harm to them in the male estate is absolutely unthinkable.

Ah. That they will rape them.

Of course.

This thread is about sexual assault on vulnerable women prisoners. No-one of FWR or in this thread has suggested that all men rape. FWRs look at the evidence, speak up for women and donate hard earned cash into crowdfunders to bring cases to court so that women's voices can finally be heard. Facts can be heard. Meanwhile Mumsnet, they're under attack on Twitter, uncritically called the home of transphobia and FWRs likened to alt right bigots.

#DebateIsNotHate

Of course not all men rape.

I'd venture to suggest that a group of which half have already been convicted of sexual offences are rather more likely to than, eg, that random person on the street, though.

@TheRebelle

How people cannot see that a man claiming to be trans so he can go into a women’s prion is a narcissist and is getting pleasure from bending the system to their will I will never understand. It’s like the people making the decisions have never lived in the real world.

To me it's obvious those people can see this, there's no way that they can't! The people making/advocating for these decisions are either indifferent to the safety of women or get enjoyment out of dismantling women's rights and protections. Either way these people have a clear hatred for women and don't see us as full and equal humans deserving of safety and dignity.

But for most, they wouldn't support trans regardless of the issue and would find a way to make it about women.

By 'they' I"m assuming this means FWR . . .

so...

[FWRs] would find a way to make it about women

This is a case about women being locked up wit rapists who have been sexually assaulted. Women who funded a crowdfunder to take the MoJ to court. Women who found and presented evidence and facts so that the QC could run the judges forensically through the law. FWR = feminist womens rights. Not 'making' it about women. It IS about women.

[FWRs] - most wouldn't support trans regardless of the issue

Women on the FWR boards from my experience have a lot of sympathy with transgender people, know trans people and care about human rights for all people. What FWRs have little time for are trans activists, who don't speak for all trans people and certainly don't speak for LGBT, who call them bigots and say #nodebate. the no-platforming is what led to this mess with women being locked up with rapists.

As a wise woman on the MoJ JR thread said:

“All I see so far is absolute fury at women daring to protest the harm and producing evidence of it that can't be covered up.”

@Erkrie

The MoJ changed their policy so that if a male-born prisoner guilty of rape or sex crimes against women has a gender recognition certificate they AUTOMATICALLY go in a women's prison

Indeed. Best behave yourselves women. As the punishment will potentially be pretty severe if you don't. Seems the MoJ have absolved themselves of any responsibility to actually keep female prisoners safe.

We women need to Organise. We need to be outside each and every prison that shits on women's safety. We are half the population ffs, we should be able to cause enough of a disruption to force the fuckers in charge to stop treating us like second class citizens. Women are always having to go through court proceedings, (which is fair enough the women doing that deserve a huge amount of respect and gratitude) ..but we shouldn't have to ask for our rights to be respected!! If we don't do something, those poor women locked up with male rapists sure can't.

We women need to Organise. We need to be outside each and every prison that shits on women's safety. We are half the population ffs, we should be able to cause enough of a disruption to force the fuckers in charge to stop treating us like second class citizens. Women are always having to go through court proceedings, (which is fair enough the women doing that deserve a huge amount of respect and gratitude) ..but we shouldn't have to ask for our rights to be respected!!
If we don't do something, those poor women locked up with male rapists sure can't.

Totally agree.

@FindTheTruth

But for most, they wouldn't support trans regardless of the issue and would find a way to make it about women.

By 'they' I"m assuming this means FWR . . .

so...

[FWRs] would find a way to make it about women

This is a case about women being locked up wit rapists who have been sexually assaulted. Women who funded a crowdfunder to take the MoJ to court. Women who found and presented evidence and facts so that the QC could run the judges forensically through the law. FWR = feminist womens rights. Not 'making' it about women. It IS about women.

[FWRs] - most wouldn't support trans regardless of the issue

Women on the FWR boards from my experience have a lot of sympathy with transgender people, know trans people and care about human rights for all people. What FWRs have little time for are trans activists, who don't speak for all trans people and certainly don't speak for LGBT, who call them bigots and say #nodebate. the no-platforming is what led to this mess with women being locked up with rapists.

As a wise woman on the MoJ JR thread said:

“All I see so far is absolute fury at women daring to protest the harm and producing evidence of it that can't be covered up.”

It won't be the trans activists in their toilets though , will it?

@FindTheTruth

Ah. That they will rape them.

Of course.

This thread is about sexual assault on vulnerable women prisoners. No-one of FWR or in this thread has suggested that all men rape. FWRs look at the evidence, speak up for women and donate hard earned cash into crowdfunders to bring cases to court so that women's voices can finally be heard. Facts can be heard. Meanwhile Mumsnet, they're under attack on Twitter, uncritically called the home of transphobia and FWRs likened to alt right bigots.

#DebateIsNotHate

That is not because of their views on prisons though.

It's because of the many views given on many threads in relation to trans.

@Whatwouldscullydo

I haven't said that once. In fact I've said many times they should be separated

If you don't believe people can change sex and think the third spaces option Is the best idea then what is it exactly you are arguing?

That the debate can be had without the transphobic posts.

@Erkrie

I'm interested to know what people think should happen with transmen though

In what sense? What prison estate they should be housed in? The female estate. The huge risk of harm to them in the male estate is absolutely unthinkable.

Right.

So you now have a biological female in a women's prison , because she identifies as a woman, but you won't have a man who identifies as a woman in there.

Well if you don't feel people can change sex then you are as guilty of "transphobia" as anyone else

@NeedToKnow101

People with male-bodies are being put into women's prisons.

Men are physically stronger than women and can overpower and intimidate them easily.

Women in prison are vulnerable and do not want to have people with male-bodies in prison with them.

Trans women have male bodies. They remain unarguably men.

'Trans women' have a higher rate of sexual offenders than the rest of the male population (largely offences against females). There is solid evidence of this; I didn't just make it up.

Are all trans women in prison 'real' trans women, or could it be possible that a large percentage of them are actually pretending to be transwomen, so they can either : access women and harass / attack them, or get an easier ride in a women's prison as there is less security etc?

Women should not be put at physical risk by people with male bodies in a women's prison. That includes the staff.

How anyone can argue for people with male-bodies being put in prison with women just beggars belief. I can't believe this is happening.

It's unbelievable how badly we have been fucked over.

I don't believe that there are many people who go through the undoubtedly complicated and traumatic process of changing gender (particularly in these times) to get into prisons to prey on folk.