To think faith schools are great and it’s only the admission cheats that make them unfair?

[Wondermule]

My second controversial post in a few days. I don’t need a hard hat at this point, I need a bunker and full ghillie suit. But here goes.

Inspired by a thread, where a poster happily shared that they lied about going to church to get their kids into a Catholic school, before denouncing the admission system as deeply unfair...

I would like to put to the good people of mumsnet that actually, admission by religion is a really good idea. And it is only the people that cheat the admission system that keep it unfair for others.

Religion is a great criteria for school admissions. It doesn’t indicate intelligence; it isn’t an indicator of wealth; it would keep sibling groups together; and the ethos and PSHE would be generally in keeping with the parents’ beliefs.

The reason why faith schools are ‘better’ are because of non-religious people with intelligent kids cheating the system to get their kids a place. This then perpetuates the cycle - the kids perform well, the school becomes more desirable, so more people cheat to get their kids in.

So aside from depriving genuine applicants of school places, they are contributing to a system that they denounce as unfair. Whereas if they stopped playing the system, schools would actually be more mixed in terms of demographics, more equal, and there wouldn’t a stampede for just a few of them.

Phew! Thoughts please?!

Have I missed the post where you have evidence for the "better for social mobility" claim?

What if my beliefs are that my child should attend a school that is diverse in both social mobility and religion and teaches that all faiths and none should be respected. Where should my DC go to school?

If you're looking for a true random marker, you'd need to use something like month of birth. Some schools only accepting children born in January (unless maybe they have an older sibling already at the school), others February, etc.

You'd probably need each school to change the qualifying month for new admissions periodically, or you'd get parents trying to time pregnancies for the sake of school admissions.

I can't send my DCs to the C of E school up the road because I don't go to church regularly.

But the posh kids from the posh village 20 miles away in a different fucking county are all bussed in every day.

And we are expected to believe that the school selects pupils solely on religion? Yeah, right. The system stinks.

It sounds reasonable enough but then you would get parents tutoring the kids for any kind of ability assessments etc - same issue

Nope.

Because if a school takes in an equal number from each ability band there is no intrinsic advantage in being in one band or another.

And if any parents did start tutoring for it, a better tactic would be to flunk the test and get a result in a less competitive band.

@Zevia

If you're looking for a true random marker, you'd need to use something like month of birth. Some schools only accepting children born in January (unless maybe they have an older sibling already at the school), others February, etc.

You'd probably need each school to change the qualifying month for new admissions periodically, or you'd get parents trying to time pregnancies for the sake of school admissions.

Actually that’s a very good idea. Of course exams would have to be staggered month by month to avoid the older months having an unfair advantage. I suppose where it would fail would be if siblings had all different birthday months.

It is not that parents with 'intelligent' kids lie to send their children there. They are parents who are well educated themselves, value education and support their child's education, therefore, as a whole average cohort, they perform better. That's very different to intelligence.

^^
I agree with this. My kids do go to a church school - and we practice this religion, although no church during lockdown. The thing that makes the school really good is that the parents are all very involved. Not because they don’t go to work - they do just like in other schools - but because there’s always that effort made to take part in fundraising, make your kids do their homework, uphold the school’s anti bullying policy etc.

It’s not a fair system at all, but those schools do very well. To be honest, you can’t really justify selection bu way of faith at all, I just wanted to send my kids to this school and they met the criteria.

@RainingBatsAndFrogs

It sounds reasonable enough but then you would get parents tutoring the kids for any kind of ability assessments etc - same issue

Nope.

Because if a school takes in an equal number from each ability band there is no intrinsic advantage in being in one band or another.

And if any parents did start tutoring for it, a better tactic would be to flunk the test and get a result in a less competitive band.

I really like this idea actually.

I think that we should do away with with all faith schools.
If you want to indoctrinate your childrenbinto a religion then do it after school or at the weekend.
That religious people have a say as to which children get into a school is wrong - they're not accountable to anyone, have a long track record of abusing their power, its a corrupt system with parents lying & cheating & buying places for their children.

All schools should be state run & funded on exactly the same criteria.

@StripeyDeckchair

I think that we should do away with with all faith schools. If you want to indoctrinate your childrenbinto a religion then do it after school or at the weekend. That religious people have a say as to which children get into a school is wrong - they're not accountable to anyone, have a long track record of abusing their power, its a corrupt system with parents lying & cheating & buying places for their children.

All schools should be state run & funded on exactly the same criteria.

Fgs another person who has missed the point entirely!

The only person who seems to get what I’m actually saying is @Zevia

Actually that’s a very good idea. Of course exams would have to be staggered month by month to avoid the older months having an unfair advantage. I suppose where it would fail would be if siblings had all different birthday months.
But exams already favour those born earlier in the academic year anyway, that's a separate problem. Obviously it would result in schools with a class of September born children being more likely to do better than a school with a class of May born children, but you could publish the birth-month criteria along with exam results for transparency and comparison.

And I already alluded to allowing younger siblings, regardless of their particular birth month, being allowed to attend the same school as an older sibling.

Not that I'm seriously arguing for this system, but it would meet your concerns far, far better than dividing based on religion, which would just further entrench racism and classism.

They attend church for precisely 1 year (or whatever the criteria specified), have a shotgun baptism, then never go back after their kids get a place

Not when applications (secondary, for example) can be scored on baptism before or after the first six months of life, having had first holy communion and level of attendance at Mass as verified on the Reference form. You can't fake a Baptism or first communion where one hasn't taken place, even by saying it happened in a different country or the certificates have gone missing, as records are kept of all sacraments.

OP: It isn't an accident that where I live (not posh area of S London) some the most successful comprehensives (in terms of doing well by ALL their students) , being extremely popular with middle class parents AND having high %s of FSM, ESOL etc are banded comps and / or lottery.

@Zevia

Actually that’s a very good idea. Of course exams would have to be staggered month by month to avoid the older months having an unfair advantage. I suppose where it would fail would be if siblings had all different birthday months. But exams already favour those born earlier in the academic year anyway, that's a separate problem. Obviously it would result in schools with a class of September born children being more likely to do better than a school with a class of May born children, but you could publish the birth-month criteria along with exam results for transparency and comparison.

And I already alluded to allowing younger siblings, regardless of their particular birth month, being allowed to attend the same school as an older sibling.

Not that I'm seriously arguing for this system, but it would meet your concerns far, far better than dividing based on religion, which would just further entrench racism and classism.

I really like it actually. A much better idea than mine.

YABU. My child attends a religious school because he was offered a place despite us not applying, because it’s one of the closest and the other local schools (all 4 we chose) were oversubscribed. We are NOT allowed to appeal based on religious grounds. So he has to attend despite us being against religious schools (having both attended them ourselves).

Not read the whole thread.

A hard no from me.

How you view this may depend on where you live.

In my area we have loads of faith schools. Entry on religious criteria. Many do not automatically accept siblings.

There are so many that if you are the 'wrong' religion or an atheist, in some parts, you will not be able to attend any local primaries and will end up with a long drive. For me there are 4 primaries in walking distance and they are all religious and have strict criteria.

OP also in our area there are a fair few Jewish schools. So the Christian children have to look further away. Do you agree with that? There's at least one Muslim school as well.

So it's not right- it discriminates on religion which doesn't sound like a good thing to me.

Also the idea religion is a good way as it's non discriminatory is untrue.

You have to be organised enough to go and get the form signed every week or whatever. So it's harder for shift workers, single parents, people with lots of kids or caring responsibilities, those who work at the weekend etc.

And of course it discriminates against those who are the 'wrong' religion.

The simplest solution is to fund all schools properly. Give extra money to schools in deprived areas and they will improve, meaning there won't be any incentive to cheat to get into a school that isn't your closest.

My objection to religious schools is that they get public money to teach their religious beliefs and they favour children from a specific religion. Some also get additional funding from their church meaning they are better funded than a non religious school. As other posters have explained, religion and wealth tend to go together so this just widens existing inequalities.

I don't agree that your system would be any fairer and it's odd to keep saying that your system would work IF people didn't cheat, because your system itself incentives cheating. I don't blame anyone who wants to 'cheat' to get their children into the best school. It's human nature to want the best for your children. Also the 'cheating' actually benefits the school because the same parents who are willing and able to jump through hoops to get their child into the chosen school will support their children to do well in their exams, improving the school's ratings.

There have also been issues with religious schools (of various denominations) that receive state funding, going way off message in what they teach.

What about that?

Good point from peaked re 'cheating'.

If your options are to develop religion, and get a school in walking distance, or to stick to your ethics and drive miles in North London rush hour... What is going to happen?

The system puts parents in a real bind.

Absolutely fine if they were to pay for the school out of church proceedings. I am not happy that any school paid for from my tax is not allowing my child because I am not practicing a certain religion

Outrageous in this day and age to have schools that discriminate on the basis of religion. Anywhere else isn’t allowed to and yet here we have a state funded facility doing so

A very valid point, and that's before we even start on the ideological reasons for leaving religion out of education, except on a purely "some believe such-and-such" basis

In the meantime I'm just struggling with the concept of putting equality and religion in the same sentence - or, come to that, using religion as a context to suggest cheating should be stamped out

It's not good because it excludes minority religions. What if there aren't enough Jewish kids around to fill a school but they won't let them into the C of E school?

I agree they’re a good idea yes my dc attends one. Good luck op

It is not that parents with 'intelligent' kids lie to send their children there. They are parents who are well educated themselves, value education and support their child's education, therefore, as a whole average cohort, they perform better. That's very different to intelligence.

I was brought up to believe that two things were so important that you should pay for the best: education and medical care. I brought my children up with the same values. We are not wealthy. We drive older cars, take local vacations,don't do fancy takeaways or pub crawls but are willing to travel 20 miles a day, round trip, to take our children to school. Sometimes we even worked two jobs to pay the tuition. I don't apologize for any of it. We prioritize our children's future and our faith.

@GeorgiaGirl52

It is not that parents with 'intelligent' kids lie to send their children there. They are parents who are well educated themselves, value education and support their child's education, therefore, as a whole average cohort, they perform better. That's very different to intelligence.

I was brought up to believe that two things were so important that you should pay for the best: education and medical care. I brought my children up with the same values. We are not wealthy. We drive older cars, take local vacations,don't do fancy takeaways or pub crawls but are willing to travel 20 miles a day, round trip, to take our children to school. Sometimes we even worked two jobs to pay the tuition. I don't apologize for any of it. We prioritize our children's future and our faith.

But what’s the point if they then just go on to do the same? Then nobody’s enjoying themselves are they? Nobody is living life to the max