To think personal responsibility no longer exists

[Wondermule]

I know this is going to be a controversial post, so I’ve got my hard hat on 🪖

It has really dawned on me how little personal responsibility people take now. Every other thread seems to be someone posting to offload their problems (financially dependant relationship, COVID worries due to high BMI, hellish mother in law among the most common) yet there is always an excuse about why they can’t the advice given, usually drip feeding something about anxiety or mental health. Please don’t see this as me making light of mental health issues (sufferer here myself), but it doesn’t change the fact only you can make changes to your life.

Also many posts citing ‘lack of support’ - this one inspired by the chocolate button debacle! - a mum feeding her 3 month old chocolate buttons just didn’t have the ‘support’ or ‘education’ to make healthy choices apparently. Never mind the healthy start vouchers for fruit and veg, maternity grant, free weaning courses at children’s centres, all the help available online... it’s all the state’s fault. I feel ‘lack of support’ will be cited until the government send someone to prepare all her meals and police her shopping trolley.

I feel in being too sympathetic, it is just providing excuses for people not to take responsibility for their own choices. Or am I wrong??

For anyone interested in a study of how we've come to this place as a society, I highly recommend you take a look at The Coddling of the American Mind by Jonathan Haidt and Greg Lukianhoff. It's an American perspective but, as with everything, it's coming here or already here in some for or another.

A PP said the pendulum has swung too far. Here's hoping it starts to swing back and settle.

Cool OP So lets lift lockdown now so people can take the personal responsibility

@MercyBooth

Cool OP So lets lift lockdown now so people can take the personal responsibility

This

But it’s being discussed so much, I think people are confusing normal negative feelings (such as nervousness at taking an exam) with having an actual condition.

Being discussed and actually having access to adequate mental health support and care and finding support,understanding and acceptance in society are two very different things.

Even I struggle to understand and empathise sometimes despite my personal and professional experience, especially if I'm emotionally involved.

Why do you keep trying to minimise and trivialise it? "Worried by an exam " indeed.

Why hello Mr Cruz So sorry your recent holiday was cut so short

@AccidentallyOnPurpose

But it’s being discussed so much, I think people are confusing normal negative feelings (such as nervousness at taking an exam) with having an actual condition.

Being discussed and actually having access to adequate mental health support and care and finding support,understanding and acceptance in society are two very different things.

Even I struggle to understand and empathise sometimes despite my personal and professional experience, especially if I'm emotionally involved.

Why do you keep trying to minimise and trivialise it? "Worried by an exam " indeed.

What would you deem to be ‘adequate support’?

There just isn’t the money or resources for the level of ‘support’ people on mumsnet claim to need with various aspects of life.

Well yes and no. In an ideal world we would all be self reliant, resiliant triumphs with a stiff upper lip and who rise to every challenge by making sensible, thoughtful well balanced decisions which benefit all.
However life is messier than that.
In my past I have made as ome horrendous decisions and sone better decisions. Anxiety is a big issue for many in our fast, paced, competetive workplace and we havn't all had the opportunity to be the types who plough on through life brilliantly.

Some*

There just isn’t the money or resources for the level of ‘support’ people on mumsnet claim to need with various aspects of life.

Check the mental health or special needs board. Might give you a bit more insight than AIBU .

People and children in crisis, people and children that are suicidal, people and children self harming with nowhere to go,nowhere to turn and on "waiting" lists.

You got out of the hole, so did I. Yes , be proud but don't look down on the ones that are still there. One more wrong turn,one more trauma , one more bad decision , one more wrong brain rewiring and it could've been you or me.

@MercyBooth

Why hello Mr Cruz So sorry your recent holiday was cut so short

😂😂😂

@MercyBooth

Why hello Mr Cruz So sorry your recent holiday was cut so short

Dunno what this means

But I also would say that we haven't been giving young people a lot of tools that encourage them to take on difficult scenarios, work through things like being nervous or being sad, or take on a sense of personal responsibility or self-teach when they run into something they don't know how to do.

No because again excuses are made - it becomes a vicious cycle. So then when they reach the next, bigger problem, it seems even more insurmountable & they cite their anxiety about it as a reason not to try. The cycle must be broken at some point (in a kind way, I don’t mean berating people).

This ^
With being absolutely clear this is a generalisation and not true of "all" of any generation, I do see this on here so much (and even more so on a Group I saw recommended on here, called 'What I Wish I Knew About University', for parents of young adults off to University).

As parents, we surely have a responsibility to teach them resilience, and that things will go wrong in life sometimes, and that it is okay to be disappointed, or sad or angry sometimes, but that life will pick up again, or that sometimes you just have to move on from it. We have a responsibility to teach them that we are all worried, or nervous or a bit uncomfortable sometimes, but that isn't some sort of health condition that excuses you from dealing with life, it is a normal human emotion that we all have in the course of our lives. That self diagnosing 'social anxiety' or 'health anxiety' or any other type of 'mental health issue' really undermines the difficulties that people who actually have proper clinical anxieties have to deal with.

I think it also creates a culture where people who are resilient are then expected to prop up those who aren’t. Which isn’t fair.

I whole-heartedly agree with this.

I see it in my professional life all the time. Too many colleagues - usually, I’m afraid, the under 35s - opting out of doing difficult stuff, or things they don’t want to do, with excuses about why they can’t possibly be expected to engage with anything unpleasant. Because they are extra sensitive and special, and have to prioritise their mental health. But not anybody else’s.

I’m one of the people who ends up having to do the things that members of my team can’t bring themselves to do. Difficult conversations. Dealing with the awkward people that somebody of my level of seniority shouldn’t need to engage with. Spelling out exactly, word for word, what somebody needs to do, so that they shouldn’t experience any uncertainty or anxiety about having to think for themselves. Picking up the slack when there’s a deadline.

The behaviour these people exhibit trivialises the experience of people who have genuine, diagnosed mental health problems. They are happy to cherry pick the bits they like - the ‘poor me’ bit - but not the worst bits of those conditions.

We have a responsibility to teach them that we are all worried, or nervous or a bit uncomfortable sometimes, but that isn't some sort of health condition that excuses you from dealing with life, it is a normal human emotion that we all have in the course of our lives

This! Get over it. You can’t permanently opt out of things that make you uncomfortable and hope that someone else will do it for you. It’s not going to wash when you are 40.

@Iamthewombat

I think it also creates a culture where people who are resilient are then expected to prop up those who aren’t. Which isn’t fair.

I whole-heartedly agree with this.

I see it in my professional life all the time. Too many colleagues - usually, I’m afraid, the under 35s - opting out of doing difficult stuff, or things they don’t want to do, with excuses about why they can’t possibly be expected to engage with anything unpleasant. Because they are extra sensitive and special, and have to prioritise their mental health. But not anybody else’s.

I’m one of the people who ends up having to do the things that members of my team can’t bring themselves to do. Difficult conversations. Dealing with the awkward people that somebody of my level of seniority shouldn’t need to engage with. Spelling out exactly, word for word, what somebody needs to do, so that they shouldn’t experience any uncertainty or anxiety about having to think for themselves. Picking up the slack when there’s a deadline.

The behaviour these people exhibit trivialises the experience of people who have genuine, diagnosed mental health problems. They are happy to cherry pick the bits they like - the ‘poor me’ bit - but not the worst bits of those conditions.

We have a responsibility to teach them that we are all worried, or nervous or a bit uncomfortable sometimes, but that isn't some sort of health condition that excuses you from dealing with life, it is a normal human emotion that we all have in the course of our lives

This! Get over it. You can’t permanently opt out of things that make you uncomfortable and hope that someone else will do it for you. It’s not going to wash when you are 40.

Well despite being in my 30's I nearly cracked at work because I was propping up someone in their 50's because they were stressed and overwhelmed and not wanting to do x or y job. Very invested in their own well being . This included working completely on my own, doing things that I don't have the qualifications,job title or remuneration for but doing an awesome job. Working at home. Doing a billion other things alongside stuff that are actually my job. I eventually said enough is enough because I was seriously struggling so I had a meeting with someone higher up and asked for support. Just another 30 yo whiny, snowflake right? Should've just got on with it, because life isn't fair and built some resilience. Right?

Should I make a value judgement on the over 50's as a generation too? Cold,selfish,self serving , willing to take the praise for work they haven't done and drive others into the ground .

Interestingly they don't really believe in mental health issues either and think people should just grow up and get on with it.

Oh for goodness’ sake. Just because my experience is that the people invoking the “I can’t do this I’m anxious” excuse at work are usually under 35, it doesn’t mean the following:

• that I think that everyone under 35 is a snowflake (your word, not mine)

• that nobody over 35 has ever pulled the same stunt.

Read your post back: you are doing a great impression of somebody who personalises things and seeks opportunities to take offence. If you are trying to prove that you are capable and resilient, find a better way of doing it.

Plenty of people of different ages and backgrounds who don’t do things they don’t want to do, they just use other reasons I expect. Men who refused to change babies’ nappies a few decades ago were given loads of excuses. There are constant posts like the OP’s, and they always think this is an edgy, controversial opinion. It isn’t, it’s completely bog standard.

Mustard mitt

'Less likely to be elastic and more likely to catastrophically break at some point. Like a person that builds a hard shell around themselves too keep out stuff they do not want to deal with.'

You see this is the sort of thing.

I know you read my posts and I referred to myself in that. So you stated that people who had been through ? the wrong sort of adversity are like ^. Presumably including me as that was the whole point.

And this is the piece about empathy.

Luckily being resilient I take it on the chin.

But the assumptions. Stating that and saying well I'm not a psychologist but...

People who have been through serious adversity. Growing up as children with disabilities and in and out of hosp. Victims of CSA. Children in DV situations etc etc.

Are often resilient but 'brittle' and in danger of breaking.

So it's not just about resilience, but exactly the right sort of resilience. Brought about by exactly the right upbringing.

And yes of course these experiences break some people. That's not their fault.

The ones who survive and keep at it are resilient. Very very resilient.

Not not the right sort of resilience apparently

So those people are written off as well.

@HereComesATractor
Amen to this !
It’s ludicrous to start harping on about how a “generation “ is like x,y or z.
I’ll guarantee you there will be some prominent figures who fit the description and millions who will not.
Instagram etc is not the real world.
Not everyone needs to paint eyebrows and make-up on and cry online or whatever the stereotype is, to be a “snowflake”.
People play the system for sure.
But we aren’t in Thatcher’s world - THANk FUCK!
Otherwise we could just crotchet our way into complacency with offensive and cruel and WRONG things...?

What I find difficult is that if you are a private type of person who may have had all kinds of horrible experiences happen to you but don’t broadcast it then you may find someone who tells all and sundry all their problems on say social media gets a much easier time of it than you . I have a colleague who told everyone about fertility struggles after a couple of years cue everyone at work ensuring they don’t upset her etc myself and DP have had problems for over 12 years but because we are private people who find it difficult to discuss this issue then I’ve had years of tactless horrid comments from colleagues .
The reason I’m mentioning this is because I feel now that the more you shout about your problems even if it’s stuff most people would just have to get on with the more you get pandered to and I don’t mean that in the context of mental health difficulties I mean it in people who can’t deal with the ups and downs of everyday life .
Apologies if this doesn’t read well I’m not the best at explaining my trains of thought .

@WhoStoleMyCheese

Agree with *@NiceGerbil*. The human brain has limited capacity for cognitive processing. The constant 24/7 news cycle, often using accusatory language making you feel solely responsible for every single fucking thing that goes wrong in the world including global warming, war in the Middle East or the mental health of other people. The media sowing general anxiety and division with the constant race/class/gender baiting. I have become much calmer and happier by tuning the world out and focusing on my day to day. I still follow some news and donate to specific charities. I consider my bit done. Anything and anyone else can fuck right off.

All of these things play into learned helplessness.

But I think some of the posts have strayed a bit from what the OP said. Which is natural but at the same time, she didn't say that people in the past had everything great. It was that there seems to be a problem with younger people now taking responsibility around some pretty basic thigs, like working hard in jobs, arriving on time, taking criticism in a job, and helping themselves when they need to make changes.

Of course there have always been people who have problems and whose circumstances have damaged them and their ability to cope.

But I would say that at the moment, there seem to be a lot of people who actually come from pretty good circmstances overall, who are struggling with a lot of what are the normal things of life. All the news and social media is part of it I think. I suspect a lot comes from spending time doing fake things on the computer rather than real things - gaming rather than sports, being inside rather than outside, etc.

And related to that, not much opportunity to be self reliant, to overcome challenges, etc. Parents that cut up food at age nine, in a recent thread, or won't let a 13 year old walk from a friends house alone. I don't mean bad things that we'd hope no one would face. I mean facing normal things, like a bad grade, work that you struggle with, figuring out what to do (besides call mum) when you get on the wrong bus.

High anxiety, a sense of being at fault, a sense of powerlessness, lack of experience overcoming problems, a strong emphasis on the idea that bad feelings are some kind of medical problem. This is not a good combination.

I always think on MN its done (highlighting mental health, background) as a way of saying 'don't be too harsh on me'. I don't think you can truly understand unless you have walked in someone's shoes what their struggles are like. There are 00s and 000s of people who manage to overcome shit childhoods and mental health to become resilient adults who probably don't post on MN so your view is possibly a bit skewed.

I’ve been expressing this point since covid reared in the U.K. last year.

I have personally spoken to ppl who refuse to take responsibility for their own health so they gave a stronger chance of fighting off covid.

They don’t want to stop smoking, eating shit, lose weight or exercise but want a lockdown and everyone to wear a mask so they can feel safe.

I am doing my best to I still personal responsibility into my children.

I really feel sorry for these children who have parents wiping their backsides every minute of the day. The World is going to eat them alive...

I do think children should be taught that life , in fact , isn’t always fair and if it doesn’t go their way to either accept it or find their own way around it.

I agree totally with this. Children need to be given the chance to develop the tools to cope with what life throws at them, and having Mum and Dad fight their battles for them does nothing to help them deal with life.

@MistakenAgain

I always think on MN its done (highlighting mental health, background) as a way of saying 'don't be too harsh on me'. I don't think you can truly understand unless you have walked in someone's shoes what their struggles are like. There are 00s and 000s of people who manage to overcome shit childhoods and mental health to become resilient adults who probably don't post on MN so your view is possibly a bit skewed.

I think this is true

'There are 00s and 000s of people who manage to overcome shit childhoods and mental health to become resilient adults who probably don't post on MN so your view is possibly a bit skewed.'

Ah but that's the wrong sort of resilience, apparently.

Those people are 'brittle' and prone to breaking.

What I've got from this thread is, in essence. From various posters.

I think people need to learn personal responsibility and resilience.
My children will have this as I am bringing them up right.
People who are overweight, addicted, have MH issues. A lot of the time it's because they're weak.
Serious challenges in life make people resilient, but in the wrong way

I love that bit.

It's a Mumsnet highlight

In the end I think a lot of people are very insecure. And get something out of looking at other people and thinking. Ha! How shit are they!

People with actual resilience, if they have survived. Think this is trivial shite. TBH.

In real life people ask me for advice all the time. They also seem preoccupied with things like. What online learning is your school providing? What do you feed your children? Blah blah blah.

People who are resilient forge their own path. We don't give a shit about comparing to others. Looking up. Looking down. Just get on with it.

This thread is a great example of the ego boost that comes from bitching on about. Obesity. Mental health problems. How AWFUL everyone else is.

On this thread I said hello I'm resilient.

And was told. It's the wrong sort of resilience and people like me are prone to catastrophic breaking.

So erm. That's a bit. It's not a great comment is it!