Why are women so bitchy?

[BearingUp84]

For context - I'm a woman and I don't think I'm a bitch!

However there seems to be a group of school mums that seem intent on leaving me out of everything. I had no idea why. They meet up (pre covid obvs), have group chats etc. One of them can't even look me in the eye on the rare occasion she talks to me.

It's like the old adage, 2 company 3's a crowd. But it's when we're in a bigger group as well.

Why do some women just seem intent on leaving someone out? Constantly on the edges etc?

YABU - not all women are bitches
YANBU - these women are bitches, try make more friends

Just rah!

"I have noticed that some people (not just women) seem to like having separate groups."

I know a few men who do that as well. I think they're deep down quite insecure people who have different personalities in different groups. I'm the opposite - I always want to introduce my friends to each other.

What’s a cliquey friendship group? How does it compare to a normal friendship group?

Are you friends with any school mums at all?

If you're in an established group, doesn't that make you the same as all the others?

Friends with particular mums & just on nodding/acquaintance terms with others?

I feel sorry for you OP. It's horrible to feel left out, and you are expressing frustration and anger. Some women are very cliquey, it is a thing, and once they've got their "groupies" they can present as quite unwelcoming. But also, accept that if you feel this strongly and negatively about them they're probably not the right friendship group for you anyway.

Friends are people you can feel totally comfortable around. You know when you're truly friends with someone. These women aren't your friends. And I'm not convinced you would want them to be.

@Gwenhwyfar

"The most extreme example of this in our society, IMO, is at middle school, where girls are really starting to develop their abilities in that area and boys are left behind. But even among adults men tend to be more direct in how they use language socially."

Which society is this? I've heard of middle schools in the English Midlands, but they're not the norm in the UK.

Any school with kids between about age 11 to 16. Pre-teens and early teens. What they are called or the exact years covered aren't particularly the issue, they aren't called middle schools where I live but junior high. But in most western countries kids that age are grouped together in schools of some kind.

Wow. A mixture of responses! Some very harsh ones also.

Thanks to those that attempted to understand!

I still don't understand why you would go out of your way to leave someone out of the group, on the edges. It goes against my nature to exclude someone, so I don't get it when people actually do it.

But it appears this has opened up a can of worms - some very strong feelings here! I apologise if I offended someone. But unfortunately my feelings still stand.

My wife normally does school drop off etc but she was in hospital so for a 2 week stint I was in charge of school stuff. I work full time and she is a SAHM.

Let me preface the following with this - I pride myself on being able to strike up a conversation with almost anyone but I have never ever dealt with bitchy nastiness like the volume of what I encountered when doing school drop off and pick up.

On the first morning I was stood in the line waiting for the doors to to open, the mums in the line were all talking about what dress up stuff the children needed for later that week.

I excused myself for interupting, said hello etc, explained what was going on (in brief and didnt overshare etc) and told them I was being a fish out of water and asked them for advice on what I should be getting for my daughter as this one had bypassed me because of the situation and I didn't want my child to be left out and fail at the first opportunity lol

The first one literally eye-rolled and looked away from me, the second huffed and got her phone out and started texting and the third glared and told me "why don't you bother teacher instead of us?". Wowsers.

I was dressed ready to go to the office and I dont have face tattoos etc so I am not an intimidating figure. Also I was polite as hell and that was still the reaction. Pickup was alright as I didn't bother to stop and try to talk to anyone.

Day 2 was equal parts cringe and rudeness from the parents there.

Day 3 was rinse and repeat.

By day 4 I had made casual "nod friends" with the other dad who was dropping off, it was clear he was alone just like me. At pickup I made a point of standing with him whilst we waited and we got talking. He laughed and said "so I'm not really invisible then!!". He explained he was the main carer and did the school run everyday. He had started off just like me by trying to make a good impression and being friendly and had been frozen out too and being treated with actual distaste.

Day 5, I was lined up with my nod mate, our kids where talking to each other. We were talking and then the drifting of conversation made its way over to us from the mums in front. They were casually ripping into one of the other mums who wasn't there that morning about "what a slag she was" and "they hate her uggs". "Her onsie is alright but the uggs make her look like a pig". That kind of caliber of chat.

Nod mate (real name Dave) looked at me and smirked whilst rolling his eyes. I joked and said "I hope you don't talk about me like that when I'm not here" and he cracked up and said "when you aren't here anymore, I will go back to being invisible".

The second week was fine as Dave and I waited outside and ignored the rest and just made dad type conversation about how cool batch cooking stuff is etc lol. We both agreed that we are clearly the square pegs and wouldn't bother again. We also went for coffee after drop off and he filled me on some of the "zingers" he has overheard during his times there. My god. It was war crime levels of nasty.

@Ori21

I feel sorry for you OP. It's horrible to feel left out, and you are expressing frustration and anger. Some women are very cliquey, it is a thing, and once they've got their "groupies" they can present as quite unwelcoming. But also, accept that if you feel this strongly and negatively about them they're probably not the right friendship group for you anyway.

Friends are people you can feel totally comfortable around. You know when you're truly friends with someone. These women aren't your friends. And I'm not convinced you would want them to be.

Thank you @Ori21. That's exactly what it is. Frustration and anger. An upset that I thought I'd left behind in the playground in my school and uni days. Not in a bunch of 30/40 year olds. But thanks for understanding. Many posters have just ripped me to shreds

I’m not sure about this op. I don’t think it’s ok to call women bitches because they don’t socialise with you.

As a pp said, they aren’t leaving you out, no more than the teacher at your kids school leaves you out when they see their mates. Your kids going to thr same school or being in the same class doesn’t mean they are now your friends.

Your post is a bit playground, your child is at school they are the ones who should feel included and behave inclusively. As mature adults we do not need to include everyone we have a loose connection with in our friendship circles. At work we should behave inclusively, at other group events, but not simply by turning up at the school gates. That’s just a polite hello at best. It’s like saying you should be invited to socialise with people who are friends on the bus on the way to work in the morning. Just because you get the same bus doesn’t mean they need to include you and are leaving you out if they don’t.

I think if you’re lonely then start a plan to resolve this. Join a group, a gym, volunteer, but I think you need to stop thinking that you all also need to behave like you’re at school. Because that’s not the case.

I’m sorry you feel sad, but try to think of positive ways forward to resolve any feelings you have.

However there seems to be a group of school mums that seem intent on leaving me out of everything. I had no idea why. They meet up (pre covid obvs), have group chats etc

Another one of these!
A group of woman who are friends with each other didn't instantly ask you to be bosom buddies wven though you have children at the same school? What BITCHES!!

I mean, seriously? Do you expect all women everywhere to want to be your friend or is it just the woman at school?

It goes against my nature to exclude someone, so I don't get it when people actually do it

Oh stop it. You exclude people constantly, in that you don't invite every random you meet to do everything with you

Where have some women got this toxic notion that other women owe them friendship and inclusion because they happen to have had a child in the same year? It's bizarre.

OP, drop this daft idea and give yourself a shake. The very worst way to make friends is to act like people have to be your friend and call them bitches when they won't. Sort out this toxic idea and somebody might actually want to talk to you.

YABVU

it must be them being a woman .....

Do you attempt to talk to these women? Have you asked any of them if they want to go for coffee? Play date? What was their answer? Do you actively join in the conversation or do you stand on the sidelines waiting to be invited?

In my experience of school gates, no one is 'excluded' it's just many people see a group and decide for whatever reason not to join in with the conversation, then feel excluded when they aren't asked to join in.

At my youngest dds school there are always groups of people milling around, if I am in a group and people come over they usually join in the conversation, many just stare from the sidelines and make no attempt to talk, I guess they are the ones who moan about school gate mums leaving them out.

If you have attempted all of the above and have been rejected, then I would just take it that they don't want to be your friend, and as you are owed no ones friendship, learn a bit of resilience and find another group.

I feel sorry for you OP. It's horrible to feel left out, and you are expressing frustration and anger. Some women are very cliquey, it is a thing, and once they've got their "groupies" they can present as quite unwelcoming

This is a joke right? You can't be that self absorbed?

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

Sadly, I do think many women never grow out of school girl behaviour. Even if they are an established friendship group it's still rude to ignore somebody who is there everyday. I've got one ignoring me at the moment because our children have fallen out and she thinks it's my child's fault. It's crazy behaviour. There's nothing you can do bar taking a view that you are better off not associating with the batshit and finding nicer people to talk to. Also, remember that it's just the school run and none of these people really matter.

I would say SOME, not many...

I experienced the worst behaved/very childish women who never grew out of school girl behaviour, when my daughter was at school. And the worst offenders were, (IN MY EXPERIENCE,) the ones who started having children at a young age (like under 21,) who had never worked, and who never mixed with anyone but those young mums who had never been out to work.. Some of them never grew out of that school yard mentality.

Not saying ALL those women are like this, but I did find the worst offenders (when DD was at school,) were the young mums who had never worked. The working mums kept themselves to themselves mostly, and would just say 'hi' and pass the time of day, and that was it.

I worked 3 days a week when DD was at school, and although I didn't see these particular mums of the other kids much, when I did see them, they were often in bunches of 4 to 6, and were always slagging someone off.

If one of their kids fell out with another kid, they would try and turn their mates against that kid's mother (never the dad, always the mother,) and they would start bullying campaigns... And it was NEVER their kid's fault. (Even though some of theirs were the worst behaved, and most disruptive in the school.)

Having said all this... I don't like the generalisation 'all women are bitches' narrative...

It's like the 'tough' men at work are go-getting and assertive, but women are bossy, and bitchy.

But yeah, the 'school girl mentality' of some young mums (particularly those who have never worked,) is definitely a thing IMO.

I have no idea what the employment history of the people doing school drop offs/pick ups is, unless they’re my friends. How on earth do you know these mums have never worked?!

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

I hate it when people come out with nonsense like this. Women don't have shared personality traits, and bitchy is just a word used to tear women down for doing things men also do - but men aren't expected to be warm and fluffy and kind and everyone's friend.

Why do you think these women are "excluding" you rather than simply friends with each other but not you, because they clicked/ have the same semse of humour/ feel comfortable together and awkward with you simply due to individual personality?

This.

An upset that I thought I'd left behind in the playground in my school and uni days. Not in a bunch of 30/40 year olds

Op, but it’s only you who is thinking like this. They probably don’t give you a second thought. I don’t mean that in a mean way, but to them you’re just another mum, they don’t know you’re yearning to be part of their group. They are just getting on with it.

Men would be the same, groups who know each other chat to one another. They don’t automatically include everyone in that group who is near. A golf club is a good example. Four guys go and play a round, they go to the club house after. They don’t wander round asking everyone there to join them for a drink. They say a polite hello. If that, and don’t even give the other people in there a thought.

Same as any bar, group goes in for a drink, they don’t scan the room asking everyone to join them just because they are at the same venue. That’s not how adults behave.

They will have no idea you desperately want to be included, and will have not given it a thought. Not because they are “bitches” but because as humans that’s how we behave to people we don’t really know who only happen to be at the same place as us.

@MrBullinaChinaShop

I have no idea what the employment history of the people doing school drop offs/pick ups is, unless they’re my friends. How on earth do you know these mums have never worked?!

Umm I never said that?

@Susie477

Unfortunately, some women never mature beyond schoolgirl friendship dynamics when in all-female groups, which is why I have always preferred to work in places with a balanced mix of the sexes.

Ignore these mums and leave them to their juvenile games.

Any teacher will tell you that female friendships are a toxic nightmare. Girls bear a grudge for far longer, generally they won't let things drop. If two boys have a spat they might knock seven bells out of each other and it's over. There were a number of girls who because I had told them off in Year 7 held the grudge until the day they left and they could quote details perfectly! I taught in all girls, all boys and mixed schools in my career, the best was the all boys school!

I still don't understand why you would go out of your way to leave someone out of the group, on the edges. It goes against my nature to exclude someone, so I don't get it when people actually do it.

What 'group' are you in though? Is it a friendship group that has gone sour?

Yabu- as you clearly stated you aren't a bitch, therefore not all women are bitches 🤷🏼‍♀️

@AtSwimTwoBerts

No, it's not a joke. I'm being deadly serious. Some women are cliquey, and freeze others out. But you know that don't you?

@BearingUp84 it was aimed at the person who posted directly above me saying that that young mums who have never worked are bitchy at the school gates.

Nobody has ripped you to shreds.

You come on with an offensive, misogynistic question about “women” like we’re one giant hive mind and expect people not to call you out?

Maybe they don’t like you. Maybe they were already friends. Maybe your attitude on here comes across in real life.

Nobody here knows the answer.