Karen and the Generational Divide

[LucilleBluth]

My very good friend kept sending me TikTok videos via whatsapp and told me to get on it. I resisted but last week I decided to have a look what it was all about.

Now I’m 40, friend is 42, both white and degree educated with teenagers and primary aged DCs. It would seem that according to this app that middle aged white women are the actual devil. I’m from a working class background and friend is MC.

I’ve never seen younger people be so vitriolic against people they don’t know. It’s definitely misogyny and ageism but dressed up as being woke???

I can’t quite figure out why or where it’s coming from. Any sociological explanation for this?

This is why when talking anybody acting in an entitled fashion, "Dick" tends to be the word I find most helpful.

@NiceGerbil

We are in the UK and the women who have the name Karen here is not for example generally a well off woman.

I also think the cultural context is different around racism and the police and so on. We have a different history. Yes black people experience racism and the met at least are pretty good at killing black men and then getting away with it, even without guns. However I don't think there's history of white middle class women calling the police on black men over and above other white people. And certainly not with the intention of having them shot on the spot.

It's a thing that does not translate well to the UK when Karen is not a posh name and the police here are arseholes to loads of groups of people.

Even in the US though, who is responsible for 99.99% of violence against black people? Oh yes, it's men. So where are the memes about them?

Ok what's the well known meme name for the man who held up up with a sawn off double barrelled shot gun?

What's the standard male name for the men who sexually harass women and girls, follow them, assault them etc?

Dave? Steve? Algernon?

@LolaButt

Karen is an attitude. Not an age. Yes the original stereotype was a forty plus woman with a particular haircut, complaining to the manager.

But from what I’ve seen on TikTok it has evolved into being a description of a man or woman of any age, behaving in an entitled fashion.

I agree that the root of it is grounded in misogyny.

Bollocks do men get called Karen.

And it actually started out about racist white women discriminating against black people. Fair enough - until the misogynists took hold of it and decided to turn it into a woman who asserts her boundaries or make a complaint. It's misogyny in a woke person's clothing.

I'd never let my kids have access to TikTok if you paid me and when my DD (8) said something about a Karen because of something she watched on YouTube I told her how it was an insult to women and middle aged women and to never accept any type of woman being put down

'Shaniqua and Shanaynay and Latisha'

In what way? I've not heard these things. Too old maybe?

The history of the usage is a bit blurry to me and I expect to many others. To assign the behaviour to a particular name is rather damaging. It is worse than having your first name sneered at for being common, because Karenesque behaviour is hateful and bullying, and the moniker describes an attitude not social origins.

However, there are some truths which need to be examined and as a society we need to decide if we want to put up with. For a few decades, the way the service industry has worked in relation to large chains, is that almost any loud and vociferous complaint will result in a compensation of some kind: a discount, a freebie, an upgrade. It is too achievable, and people can let rip, disregarding the feelings of the actual individual who is representing the company. There is a way of standing your ground and being reasonable and persuasive. And not pushing the point. It's less and less possible to get to see a manager in shops etc. The ruthless efficiency of the computerised system is the boss.
The other thing is that in big companies members of staff are trained to respond to comments and questions in a particular way. There is a script and a list of options and a system that they can't over ride, they don't have the authority or training to do so, do they just have to stand there and suck up the abuse, while somebody verbose and sure-of- their ground let's rip. This just is the modern world. Personal service is not what it was because everything is computerised with a standard response and options. Training is to pick an option not to get into a debate on ethics. The benefits are that these systems are often effective in getting us all relatively inexpensive, clean, standardized products.
Also within these big companies, juniors will often rise through the tires because they are hardworking and very intelligent and they see self- promoting behaviour as ugly when it is ugly. Glitches in big systems and companies are common and will always be from now on. We will just have to put up with it as we do computers going wrong all the time, buffering and updating, and it being very hard to know how to overide these mechanical quirks.

Reviews are another thing. Online reviews affect companies. Perhaps, increasingly, disgruntled people may stop taking out their ire on the personnel and just leave a small star review.

Anyway, it's always good to listen to the point of view, even if you don't agree with it, and if some people say that others have been entitled, then I'm sure it's worth considering the view..as long as the counter argument is going to be listened to also.

People get called Karen, I think, when it is clear that they would not use their powerful and articulate voice to protect and advocate for the oppressed - only for themselves. Or that is how some people think it was and should be, but I reckon the insult is being abused now to take in anyone who the name-caller doesn't like.

What's the standard male name for the men who sexually harass women and girls, follow them, assault them etc

Yes I'd like to know.

Or is this a USA thing?

I genuinely have no idea so would say that it's not as common as Karen whatever it means.

@NiceGerbil

We are in the UK and the women who have the name Karen here is not for example generally a well off woman.

I also think the cultural context is different around racism and the police and so on. We have a different history. Yes black people experience racism and the met at least are pretty good at killing black men and then getting away with it, even without guns. However I don't think there's history of white middle class women calling the police on black men over and above other white people. And certainly not with the intention of having them shot on the spot.

It's a thing that does not translate well to the UK when Karen is not a posh name and the police here are arseholes to loads of groups of people.

See, I didnt think it was the same here, but shortly after the Central Park video I was talking to a (black, female) friend and it turns out (some) white women being bitches to black women and then turning on the tears is a thing here too. I suppose its a plus that we dont have as many guns here, and I dont think the dynamic is exactly the same as the US but thats exactly the sort of conversation which is actually useful to have because to be honest I thought I was quite aware of issues around racism but didnt realise that dynamic was so prevalent here. Unfortunately those worthwhile discussions quickly got eclipsed by (not exclusively but a lot) of white men weaponising the word Karen to dump on women they dont like. Plus ca change.

Too old maybe?

Too British. It's a USA thing again, isn't it?

I get the boomers, snowflakes etc have had plenty of crap. It's not right, of course not.

But for many keyboard warriors I think there's something deliciously more personal about Karen. It zooms right in on the demographic they dislike. Many also go a little further and attempt to get Karen's "cancelled ", or dox to establish where they work and tell all Karen's email contacts what a bitch she is.

The use of Karen really does demonstrate commitment to some people's cause

@VladmirsPoutine

If the shoe doesn't fit then don't wear it. Karens are very specific types of women. They frankly are a lot more dangerous than the out and out neo nazis.

Wow

Chocolatechocolate exactly this. No one’s saying men can’t be absolute shithouses as well but this discussion is about the attitudes of some women. The way some people are getting worked up reminds me of when people get more offended over being called racist than they do about the actual racism 🙄

And....misses the point entirely

@gigity

It’s the entitled, always-thinking-you’re-right & disregard for the way your negative attitude might affect someone else

Why do so many men get away with this?

Now this is a good question ...

Apparently it's because us wimmin are hypnotising them with our siren ways so y'know, not their fault

[quote Chocolatechocolatechoate]@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

There are tons and tons of memes calling men out on their nonsense.

I'm so tired of this excuse on mumsnet that women can never be held accountable for their actions because men are so much worse.

Yes men probably are worse but that's a separate issue, we're talking about women and the names used to describe them right now. Saying "oh but men do this.." isn't a defence for women acting ina way that is not acceptable.[/quote]
Examples please of equivalent memes about men?

And if group A is responsible for over 90% of a bad behaviour (aggression in this case) but group B is that one that is shamed and pilloried for it, do you think that is fair?

But when men commit the vast, vast majority (90%+) of harassment, violent crimes and racist crimes, why is it women who get the moniker, get the abuse and are expected to be the ones to do something about it? What's the name for the white men who murder black men? Or the male police who kill black people for no reason?

The people who hark about "Karens" could NOT give a shiney shite about POC. Quite the opposite, I imagine. There simply over the moon to find a legitimate and accepted outlet for their misogyny.

@LucilleBluth

I’m interested in the origins. Has it, as a pp stated always been this way or is it just in our faces now because of social media. In my opinion it is sexist and ageist no matter how people try to defend it.

To the poster who asked why is a 40 year old on TikTok. My friend sent me various videos of a man in blonde wig with a Mancunian accent and told me that she misses me, make of that what you will 😀.

The origins are with a seventeen year old boy in California who created a page on reddit called "Fuck You, Karen!" to denigrate his ex-wife, who he claimed cheated on him and therefore deserved a load of misogynist and sexually secific violent abuse online. Savvy redditors noted that as the age of consent in Califoirnia is 18, a 17 year old probably didn't have an ex wife.

If you want to know anything else about whether or not "Karen" is misogynist and institutionally sexist, go over to Reddit (but don't say I didnlt warn you) and search for "Karen". And then search for any male name you can think of - someone upthread suggested "Kevin" - and see which name has the vast preponderance of threats of sexualized physical violence.

"Karen" is a sham - playing on decent people's openness to consider that they might be unknowingly racist or classist. But women don't really need a bunch of white upper middle class teenage boys telling us what is racist or classist, and defining those terms to exclude themselves and to pit marinalised groups against each other, IMO.

See, I didnt think it was the same here, but shortly after the Central Park video I was talking to a (black, female) friend and it turns out (some) white women being bitches to black women and then turning on the tears is a thing here too.

This is such a huge phenomenon. I can't think of a single Black woman I know that hasn't encountered this. And the beauty of it is because they don't use 'racist' language so they often get away with it. And when called out on it start crying thus rendering the Black woman 'aggressive'. It's exhausting to say the least.

I feel your despair OP. I think it's lazy misogynistic shite, and as a woman in her late 30s I feel like I'm finally coming into that age where I don't give a fuck what society expects me to do.

But that said, I don't view all young people as "woke snowflakes", and my parents (in their 60s, having lived their lives in a south asian country) are actually surprisingly liberal. My dad is a business owner who is very supportive of women in his workplace, they're both very accepting of LGB relationships and don't think it's their business to judge anyone. And many of their friends are thoughtful considerate people too. I know some people who fit the stereotypes, but I dislike this absolute misogyny/ageism dressed up as woke BS.

I'm so tired of this excuse on mumsnet that women can never be held accountable for their actions because men are so much worse.

The question is why are men not held to account, why do men like Saville, Epstein, Weinstein, Trump get away with criminality, why do some men like to hold women to account but not men?

Appalled, yes I agree that we have massive problems with racism here but the specific dynamic with a long history of racist white women 'weaponising' the police to try and get black men arrested, imprisoned, beaten or even killed on their say so is a thing with a specific USA history.

You have to listen to people's complaints about abusive behaviour, because they know what it means to be on the receiving end of it. We can all learn from the perspectives of others.

I don't like it, however, when a word gets used all the time and nobody ever thinks of an alternative way to say it. It's when you use synonyms and put things in your own words that the language we all use becomes enriched with nuances and shades of meaning tinged with the examples they refer to, and our understanding increases.

I dislike that 'entitled', 'privileged', 'inclusive' , ' aligned' all get used all the time without anyone checking that audience and all of us know what those using them are distinctly saying.

sweet666 The woman who threatened to call the police on a black man in the US was called Amy. Before then, I'd only really seen Karen used as someone who demands to see the manager (ie an older woman who stands up for herself), not as a racist. After Amy's racist actions, Karen became a racist. So why isn't a white racist woman an 'Amy'? Why isn't the real name of the actual perpetrator used?

Could it be because Amy is generally a younger name than Karen, and the people who keep these stereotypes going don't want to stigmatise their own or their friends' names?

Realistically I don't think at 40 you will understand. It is terminology that comes from young people, and is used by females and males.
A Karen is (usually) a middle class white women who acts entitled and specifically 'asks to see the manager', shouts at service people, complains for no actual reason e.g. screaming.
Unfortunately it is centered around the middle class white woman because they are the main perpetrators.
My daughter uses the word. It is not misogynistic, and realistically if you begin to call it ageist and misogynistic you're acting slightly like a Karen.
As a poster stated it's no different to boomers calling millennials 'snowflakes'.